I'm looking at different molecules, some which activate the androgen receptor and some which don't, in regards to none "buffers."

I was wondering whether activation of the androgen receptor was associated with any of the 'intimidating' effects of Androstenone.

DHEA seems to antagonize the androgen receptor (though it is also a slight agonist) while 7-Keto DHEA does not impact the androgen receptor. That seems like a significant advantage in favor of 7-Keto DHEA as an Androstenone buffer.

I was wondering if anyone wanted to argue the contrary position? Is androgen receptor inhibition good for some social mixes? Should the small amount of DHEA (Dehydroisoandrosterone) in Alpha Mashio be replaced with 7-keto DHEA? Or does over-activation of the androgen receptor cause ODs?

Very interesting question... I'm trying to dig info about DHEA/DHEAS/7keto DHEA - hopefully someone knows.

(01-28-2013 2:12 PM)phertest Wrote:  Very interesting question... I'm trying to dig info about DHEA/DHEAS/7keto DHEA - hopefully someone knows.

(Edited)
DHEA seems to activate Estrogen Receptor Beta.

Quote: Chen et al. (9) observed that DHEA exerted clear-cut agonistic effects on ERβ. DHEA strongly activated transcriptional activity in a construct containing ERβ, which was 50% higher than that elicited by estradiol (E2). Moreover, DHEA administration elicited greater transcriptional activation of ERβ vs. ERα and no detectable activation of AR, suggesting that ERβ is the preferred target for the transcriptional effects of DHEA. Additionally, the ER antagonist ICI-182,780 antagonized DHEA-induced transcription, consonant with an effect of DHEA mediated via its direct binding to ERβ.
http://endo.endojournals.org/content/146/11/4565.full

I'm thinking that DHEA very likely blocks the OR7D4 receptor, and maybe other less-well-studied mone related olfactory receptors. So a tiny bit of the stuff could literally 'buffer' other molecules to prevent them from smelling too foul up close while still being potent further away.

To put a finer point on it; imagine that you had a bunch of open receptor sites. At a distance, the receptor agonists (activators) and antagonists (blockers) will both be at low doses, so they won't interfere with one another and you'll get the full effect of your mones. At close range, you'll get more agonist, but also more antagonist. The antagonist (DHEA) would keep a mix's smell from becoming overpowering at close range.

Also, this isn't directly relevant to mones, just a side effect of reading, but high DHEA after puberty seems something fairly peculiar to the human species. Rats aren't a good model for our relatively high levels of DHEA in adulthood, for example.

wiserd, do you think its possible that we're just not using enough of each molecule to cause a huge clash? In general, what I mean is that sure there could be antogistic effects of DHEA, but there are still so many "unblocked" receptors that they don't interfere with eachother?

I'm also interested in knowing what actually causes OD - whether its an effect of the mones solely or just not being "congruent" (I hate that word). Because I recall someone who was on ecstasy with a ridiculous amount of NONE or an intimidating product, it might have been scary for the girls but still a turn on.

(01-29-2013 1:10 AM)phertest Wrote:  wiserd, do you think its possible that we're just not using enough of each molecule to cause a huge clash? In general, what I mean is that sure there could be antogistic effects of DHEA, but there are still so many "unblocked" receptors that they don't interfere with eachother?

I'm also interested in knowing what actually causes OD - whether its an effect of the mones solely or just not being "congruent" (I hate that word). Because I recall someone who was on ecstasy with a ridiculous amount of NONE or an intimidating product, it might have been scary for the girls but still a turn on.

Here's my 2c.

1. Personally, I've seen diminishment in the characteristic effects of molecules like Androstenone when DHEA was used (not that that's all bad), leading me to believe that they can come into conflict when Androstenone is used at 5mcg or less and DHEA is used at... several mcg. I can't remember what dosage I was using, honestly, but it happened a number of times for me at x microgram quantities. I'd written off DHEA for a long time. I'm reconsidering a low dose. Also, I suspect that there's a certain amount of natural activation of the androgen receptor from stuff already in the body that pheromonal DHEA will block, so it may have an impact even if there's no other mone TO block. That would explain how it can reduce someone's status below what it would naturally be. I'm not sure to what extent, precisely, DHEA is blocking Androstenone in the air vs molecules in the body.

2. I think OD can be a mix of things. Sometimes, I think it's an improperly covered scent. Someone just smells bad. Or the person gets a headache or some other negative effect. Sometimes it's an improperly buffered scent. Someone comes across as too aggressive or there's just a conflict between someone's persona + mones and another person.

Where that conflict happens depends on a lot of things. How people relate to one another. A person's biochemical state, including influences like the time of day, a person's genetic sensitivities to various molecules, a person's age and confidence, what proscription or non-proscription drugs they're on, etc. Societal norms and people's personal reactions seem to be huge as well. Aggression is interpreted differently depending on who it comes from. A person who is anxious may cling to a boyfriend but shy away from a stranger.

I remember using a high dosage of Androstenone one time, I COULDN'T be my normal playful self with my wife. My actions were interpreted much more aggressively. I can understand why some tank-like dudes are so conserved in their motions and speech. People will interpret their actions as aggression much more readily.

MDMA, from what I've read, tends to get people to interpret things positively and ignore negative emotional info.