So there could be hundreds of human pheromones because there are hundreds of chemicals excreted by humans. More specifically I wanted to look at non-apocrine secreted molecules. However, some are secreted by numerous methods. Such as through the skin+urine+respiration.

I guess the hard part is the identification of the response to the chemical. It needs to be identified and coorelated to not just the molecule, but to a hormonal process within the individual and not just a association of smell to memory.

Harder yet would be 2 step processes, where a molecule causes a release of a hormone, that indirectly causes the release of another hormone, an indirect response to a chemosignal. Also the variability of individuals and their reactions based on age, sex, menstrual cycle, and individual pre-exposure hormone levels. I can see why rats and mice are such good subjects, we can control them and limit their variations so much better than humans.

Sorry to run off on a tangent. But, if you pee on something to mark your territory, like a dog or other animal, are these proper pheromones? I realize that Androstenone is present in human urine, but could all the other chemicals in urine also be pheromones? I realize that "ALL" of them aren't, but could we extend the definition of pheromones beyond neurosteroids to other molecules that "MAY" have indirect effects on hormone levels?

Below are some that I wondered about as they are
1)Human
2)Excreted
3)Hormones
4)Minute Quantities that are consistant with Pheromone use
5)Not all of these have low molecular weights, and as such may not be free to diffuse in air

from: http://www.cigna.com/healthinfo/hw6078.html http://www.cigna.com/healthinfo/hw6078.html
Catecholamines in a 24-hour urine sample Free catecholamines Less than 100 micrograms (mcg) or less than 590 nanomoles (nmol)
Epinephrine Less than 20 mcg or less than 109 nmol
Norepinephrine 15–80 mcg or 89–473 nmol
Dopamine 65–400 mcg or 420–2612 nmol
Normetanephrine 105–354 mcg or 573–1933 nmol
Metanephrine 74–297 mcg or 375–1506 nmol
Vanillylmandelic acid (VMA) Less than 9 milligrams (mg) or less than 45 micromoles (mcmol)


From: http://homeocare.blogspot.com/2006/07/ho...urine.html
http://homeocare.blogspot.com/2006/07/ho...urine.html
The hormones which are excreted in urine are:
1. Sex hormones.
(i). Derivatives of testosterones- Androsterone, 17-ketosteroids (17-KS) and dehydroepiandrosterone.
(ii). Derivatives of estrogens- Oestrone and oestriol mainly as mainly as glucuronides or sulphates but slightly in free uncombined form.
(a). During Menstruation- Estrogen excretion starts rising from the resting phase and becomes maximum at the time of ovulation (14th day) and then falls.
(b). During Pregnancy- Excretion of estrogen starts rising from the first week and reaches the maximum just before the onset of parturition. After delivery it falls but traces may still be found in the free uncombined form.
(iii). Derivatives of progesterone- Pregnanediol-as glucuronide.
(a). During Menstruation- It appears in the premenstrual phase of menstruation but not in the follicular phase. The excretion starts one or two days after ovulation and becomes maximum about a week before the onset of menstruation and ceases 2-3 days before the period comes.
(b). During Pregnancy- During pregnancy much larger quantities of progesterone are excreted, the amount being maximum during the eight and ninth months. It falls before parturition.
(iv). Placental gonadotrophins.
(a). FSH - follicle stimulating hormone
(b). LH - luetinizing hormone
©. Oestradiol
(d). Progesterone
(e). Pregnanediol
(f). hCG - human chorionic gonadotrophin
2. Adrenocorticoid hormones and Neutral 17-ketosteroids (They are chiefly derivatives of androgens i.e, androsterone and similar substances derived both from the adrenal cortex and testes in males and from only adrenal cortex in females. Hence, in males, the excretion is higher than in females.
3. Pituitary hormones- Following hormones are excreted in the urine:
(a). Antidiuretic hormones - Arginine vasopressin (AVP), also known as vasopressin, argipressin or antidiuretic hormone (ADH)
(b). Somatotrophic hormone - GH and HGH
©. Thyrotrophic hormones- Its excretion increases after thyroidectomy.
4. Thyroid hormones- In hyperthyroidism with increased secretion of thyroid hormones, excess hormones are excreted through the kidney and also through mothers milk.

(08-23-2011 1:39 PM)dexter Wrote:  So there could be hundreds of human pheromones because there are hundreds of chemicals excreted by humans. More specifically I wanted to look at non-apocrine secreted molecules.

Androstenol effects LH, which is linked to women's mood. Androsterone is somewhat species specific to primates, and probably individually specific in the axillary secretions and other secretions of human males. There may be hundreds to thousands of other pheromones including those that are tissue-type specific, but I don't think anyone will isolate a species-specific, tissue type-specific human pheromone, since no one else has shown that a mixture (like androstenol/androsterone) effects hormones and behavior (e.g., in women).

What do you mean by axillary secretions, is this the hypo-adrenal-gonad axis.

Ok, just wondering if there was some sort of taboo about pheromones and skin. Seems like it was an unwritten law sometimes that pheromones needed to come from arm pits in humans. While other mammals have pheromones in:
spit -> pigs/ androsterone
urine -> Monkey foot-urine-washing ritual http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/...smell-love
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/...smell-love
urine -> mice MHC (dissimilar is better) http://alphadominance.com/?p=738[/url]
[url=http://alphadominance.com/?p=738]
butt musk ->hyenas/skunks

While pee may hold the real pandora's box of pheromones. Good thing men and women use different bathrooms in some workplaces, keep us from getting all worked up from the unsmelled scents that the urinal cakes can barely cover.

another thought,
I have read about pheromones needing to be small to be effective. Like Diane saying that Oxytocin is worthless because it is too big to diffuse.

I also wondered about hCG and other large molecules in the previous posts,and how they were such a large molecules. I thought it would be too heavy to get airborne.

But it could be a pheromone, just not the type that works from a distance. Probably why a dog will have such good sense of smell but still have to stick his/her nose in another dogs butt to sniff it. Or a person's croch for that matter. There must be certain molecules that give information, but are just too large to diffuse in the air, and dogs know you need to get real close & sniff them for them to be useful.

Otherwise, wouldn't the dog with it's great sense of smell be able to smell it from more than 2 inches?

(08-23-2011 5:30 PM)dexter Wrote:  another thought,
I have read about pheromones needing to be small to be effective. Like Diane saying that Oxytocin is worthless because it is too big to diffuse.

Sorry, I have limited time for discussion. You may want to look for a copy of my book, or look at the more technical rendition of the concept here.