(12-22-2009 9:15 AM)xxx Wrote:  I hope your researcher friend could help us find out the molecular name of TAA in Instant shine so that we could have other chemists synthesize it.

From my limited knowledge of chemistry, I think that it is almost impossible to find out the components of a compound or a mixture unless you specifically know which chemical you are looking for.

A simple example would be say common salt, which is a compound formed by combining sodium and chlorine. If someone gave you a sample of salt and asked you to find the elements which make it up, it would be impossible to do so because first you will need to decompose the compound into its components. You will not know how to do this because you do not know how the chemicals were combined. Even if you manage to do this, you will then need to carry out tests for each and every element to find out which ones are present.

This is the case with simple compounds. The steps will increase exponentially for more complex compounds. Also these are inorganic elements which are limited in number and can be combined in a limited number of ways. Most pheromones are combinations of organic and inorganic compounds. I cannot begin to explain how complex it would be (if not impossible) to separate the components.

I do have limited knowledge in this area, so feel free to correct me.

Hi Ibelledthecat! LOL @Ax...I must confess to having seen the "ax testing threads at AD and ignored them because of the association with the axe "colognes". My bad obviously since you sound like a serious mixer.

It's great you are here and I look forward to reading about your mixes and theories regarding pheromones. One of the things that is important here is associating pheromone effects with actual chemical names. Any info in that regard that you are comfortable posting will be a great addition to our discussion.

Welcome to the community and make yourself at home!!!!!

(12-22-2009 10:38 AM)renny Wrote:  Hi Ibelledthecat! LOL @Ax...I must confess to having seen the "ax testing threads at AD and ignored them because of the association with the axe "colognes". My bad obviously since you sound like a serious mixer. It's great you are here and I look forward to reading about your mixes and theories regarding pheromones. One of the things that is important here is associating pheromone effects with actual chemical names. Any info in that regard that you are comfortable posting will be a great addition to our discussion. Welcome to the community and make yourself at home!!!!!

Thank you for the welcome. I never thought that the name Ax would cause this much confusion. My new name for round 2 (AxR) just sounds like a mistyped axe so I'll probably think of a new name soon. Any name suggestions that you might have would be welcome.

I hope to get started with my testing soon.

I'm pretty sure I know what TAA is.

Once we get our own testing up and running early next year, it won't matter if we nail it or not. We will have a good data base of pheromones and their effects at various concentrations without all the mystery labels and hoodoo slight of hand.

Diane

(12-22-2009 9:26 AM)ibelledthecat Wrote:  

From my limited knowledge of chemistry, I think that it is almost impossible to find out the components of a compound or a mixture unless you specifically know which chemical you are looking for.

A simple example would be say common salt, which is a compound formed by combining sodium and chlorine. If someone gave you a sample of salt and asked you to find the elements which make it up, it would be impossible to do so because first you will need to decompose the compound into its components. You will not know how to do this because you do not know how the chemicals were combined. Even if you manage to do this, you will then need to carry out tests for each and every element to find out which ones are present.

This is the case with simple compounds. The steps will increase exponentially for more complex compounds. Also these are inorganic elements which are limited in number and can be combined in a limited number of ways. Most pheromones are combinations of organic and inorganic compounds. I cannot begin to explain how complex it would be (if not impossible) to separate the components.

I do have limited knowledge in this area, so feel free to correct me.

For the small chemist or lab yes it would be close to impossible.  Huge labs like my brothers (he works for exxon)  have machines that do this very quickly though, giving you a list of likely candidates as to what the molecule is.  They are mega expensive so only the really big chemical labs and medical facilities have them. 

As Di mentioned once testing is underway here of various hormones by name we can make some comparisons and while we may never be able to say what TAA is we will be able to point you to the one that acts most like it.   

(12-22-2009 1:22 PM)Diane999 Wrote:  I'm pretty sure I know what TAA is. Once we get our own testing up and running early next year, it won't matter if we nail it or not. We will have a good data base of pheromones and their effects at various concentrations without all the mystery labels and hoodoo slight of hand. Diane

(12-23-2009 4:25 AM)Tisha Wrote:  

(12-22-2009 9:26 AM)ibelledthecat Wrote:  

From my limited knowledge of chemistry, I think that it is almost impossible to find out the components of a compound or a mixture unless you specifically know which chemical you are looking for.

A simple example would be say common salt, which is a compound formed by combining sodium and chlorine. If someone gave you a sample of salt and asked you to find the elements which make it up, it would be impossible to do so because first you will need to decompose the compound into its components. You will not know how to do this because you do not know how the chemicals were combined. Even if you manage to do this, you will then need to carry out tests for each and every element to find out which ones are present.

This is the case with simple compounds. The steps will increase exponentially for more complex compounds. Also these are inorganic elements which are limited in number and can be combined in a limited number of ways. Most pheromones are combinations of organic and inorganic compounds. I cannot begin to explain how complex it would be (if not impossible) to separate the components.

I do have limited knowledge in this area, so feel free to correct me.

For the small chemist or lab yes it would be close to impossible.  Huge labs like my brothers (he works for exxon)  have machines that do this very quickly though, giving you a list of likely candidates as to what the molecule is.  They are mega expensive so only the really big chemical labs and medical facilities have them. 

As Di mentioned once testing is underway here of various hormones by name we can make some comparisons and while we may never be able to say what TAA is we will be able to point you to the one that acts most like it.

That is one thing that I did miss out - intuition. Someone with enough experience will be able to spot similarity in properties between compounds and identify them. Although not strictly scientific, it can still provide a path for chemical tests to determine the exact chemicals.

As far as the big machines are concerned, can they also identify organic compounds ? cuz as far as I know carbon and hydrogen  attach to themselves in all sorts of ways to form literally millions of compounds. I have a lot to learn in this area, but not enough time to do it so I may be way off the mark.

Hey Ibelledthecat, welcome to PheroTruth! Glad you could be here, I'm eager to see the results of your experiments. It looks like this forum is just getting better and better, hopefully your experimenters will also come and sign up so we can get their perspectives first hand. It'll be great when we can refer to the actual chemical names, rather than p9828.. or TAx..

How do you suppose they identify the elements in sweat, for example, to come up with Androstadienone, Androstadienol, Androstenol, etc., etc.?

As long as you are working with a mixture with less than 20 different compounds, identifying those compounds is relatively easy, especially when you are talking about simple ring structured molecular compounds such as steroids. You use mass spectrometry, gas chromatography, and liquid or gel permeation chromatography. Chromatography methods help clarify the mass spectrometry by spacing out the peaks and eliminating ghosting problems. To identify exact isomers you can also use refractive analysis of fractionated samples.

The only time it gets difficult is when you have many more compounds in the mixture. But even so, the mixtures can be fractionated and all elements can be eventually identified.

New methods are being developed all the time to simplify the identification of compounds.

And you don't even need to be a chemist to do this. All you need to be is a lab tech with a few computer skills. The databases are immense.

Here is a simple tutorial that explain the basics of Mass Spec and Gas Chromatography:

https://www.scientific.org/tutorials/articles/gcms.html

Diane

(12-23-2009 5:55 AM)Phya Wrote:  

Hey Ibelledthecat, welcome to PheroTruth! Glad you could be here, I'm eager to see the results of your experiments. It looks like this forum is just getting better and better, hopefully your experimenters will also come and sign up so we can get their perspectives first hand. It'll be great when we can refer to the actual chemical names, rather than p9828.. or TAx..

Thanks for the welcome. I hope I can get started with my testing soon.

(12-23-2009 6:07 AM)Diane999 Wrote:  How do you suppose they identify the elements in sweat, for example, to come up with Androstadienone, Androstadienol, Androstenol, etc., etc.? As long as you are working with a mixture with less than 20 different compounds, identifying those compounds is relatively easy, especially when you are talking about simple ring structured molecular compounds such as steroids. You use mass spectrometry, gas chromatography, and liquid or gel permeation chromatography. Chromatography methods help clarify the mass spectrometry by spacing out the peaks and eliminating ghosting problems. To identify exact isomers you can also use refractive analysis of fractionated samples. The only time it gets difficult is when you have many more compounds in the mixture. But even so, the mixtures can be fractionated and all elements can be eventually identified. New methods are being developed all the time to simplify the identification of compounds. And you don't even need to be a chemist to do this. All you need to be is a lab tech with a few computer skills. The databases are immense. Here is a simple tutorial that explain the basics of Mass Spec and Gas Chromatography: https://www.scientific.org/tutorials/articles/gcms.html Diane

You are absolutely right. Thanks for the link. I wasn't able to read it now but I have bookmarked it.

Your words started bringing flashbacks of high school chemistry  I am sure I read about gas chromatography then.