To steer this thread back to Andrew's original question, and to address Tisha and my original response:

(05-22-2010 4:02 PM)Tisha Wrote:  If she is not comfortable working with those molecules she shouldn't. She has made a lot of great mixes without them from the reports. I am sure there are other companies that dont sell certain molecules for what ever reason. Look at AD they wont sell Androstadienone because they feel women are deliberately trying to depress men with it. Its a crock of shit but its there crock so who cares.

As I recall, Diane didn't like the effects that SHE got from either Androstenone or Methoxyestratetraenone , and as is Diane's nature, if it has a negative effect on her then it's going to have a negative effect on everyone else too.

How great her mixes are, is something that I really have to question though. It just seems all to odd that right out of the gate every pheromone mix she's offered gets great reviews.

I remember when Diane first started experimenting with her own molecules and we planned the Molecule Testing Project, which we had to scrap. The biggest reason the project was scrapped was because Diane started reporting on and listing the effects that users could anticipate for the various molecules, which tainted any reports that would have been written and thus the entire project.

In less than 8 months she has managed to put together a line of products greater than what Androtics, Liquid Alchemy Labs, or almost every other pheromone company have in their consumer line. And, she managed to do so without input or feedback from anyone. There's been no experimentals, no testers for new mixes, no duds and no losers!

And, when she first started, she allowed people to request mixes for specific situations, and magically she was able to blend the perfect combos?

I'm sorry, I just don't buy into any of it. Is it personal, yeah a little. When we started this forum we welcomed Diane with open arms and did everything we could to support her. She responded by personally attacking us at every opportunity, trying to turn the admins against each other, throwing the TRUTH in our faces anytime she didn't get what she wanted, and generally making our lives so miserable that we actually talked about shutting down the forum.

Moving away from the periodic table to pheromones and womens' periods is more logical. I detailed the evolutionary perspective in my last technical paper: http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/BIB/kohl.htm --starting with yeast, and including Creation. (The challenge is for anyone to read the paper, which is 57 pages long, and also was published as a book chapter. If I hadn't written it, I probably would not have read it in its entirety.)

The bottom line is that we first look for an effect on the right hormones (e.g, those that change with the menstrual cycle), and then try to find behavioral affects, keeping in mind that the same compound may be part of a mixture that is species specific. A hormone metabolite associated with aversion, like androstenone, is not a likely place to start looking for a pheromone that has any positive affect on human behavior, while a metabolite like androstenol with its effects on hormones and pleasant musky odor is a good candidate. Use of supraphysiological amounts of androstadienone in human experiments has never been a great idea, and it has never been linked directly to behavioral affects (i.e., just physiology and mood).

The breakdown of androstenol to androstenone suggests to me that once the purpose of the androstenol is accomplished, via its effect on luteinizing hormone and thus on hormone-driven behavior, it metabolizes to something aversive as a means to better ensure properly timed reproductive sexual behavior, which is what the concept of pheromones -- from yeast to other primates -- is about. Those who are trying to determine whether any chemical has a pheromonal purpose might be better off taking an approach similar to Mark's, but without any preconceived notions about cross-species comparisons from pigs to humans. The fact that primates produce much more dehydroepiandrosterone from their adrenal glands tends to shift attention from our similarities to the differences between us and our mammalian ancestors.

James V. Kohl
http://www.pheromones.com

(05-23-2010 1:40 PM)mark-in-dallas Wrote:  Not trying to be argumentative, but I believe that there are a number of reasons to believe that Androstenone is a human pheromone, and while it's debatable as to how much of a purpose it serves today, it must serve A purpose.

We know that Androstenone acts as a pheromone in pigs, that's a given.

Evolution has been proven. The missing link has been found and we can now trace our ancestory back to at least primates. Not to say that evolution resulted from random chaos and that there isn't an element of creation and intelligent design in that evolution, but we did evolve.

We know that the human body is highly efficient, having evolved over many millenia, and in a healthy human there is little or no wasteful production. Excepting the digestive system, which actually gleans all useful material from food intake, than discards the waste.

We know that the appendix once served a greater purpose than today, and although it still may serve a purpose in the immune system, it is largely a vestigial organ now.

We know that the tonsils function is to filter out germs, but that they are now considered to be more of a liabilty in adults than beneficial, which may be because the types of germs and infections that the tonsils serve to filter out are relatively uncommon in today's society.

We know that Androstadienone breaks down into to androstenol, and that androstenol then changes to androstenone. We know that Androstadienone has pheromonal properties in syncing womens menstrual cycles when in close quarters.

And, anecdotal evidence suggests that Androstadienone also serves to comfort women during their menstual cycles. Anecdotal evidence also suggests that Androstenol has social pheromonal properties.

If Androstenone didn't serve a purpose, evolution suggests that Androstenol would either breakdown into something more useful, or not continue to breakdown.

The breakdown chain itself makes sense. First to comfort, then engage, and finally to cause arousal.

We know hat humans have a VNO, but that it is vestigial now. Yet Androstenone has survived. If not as a pheromone, then to what purpose.

(05-23-2010 1:49 PM)zeph Wrote:  JVK, I was wondering if you could enlighten me if there has been research that suggests that CN5 can sense more than just that because that'd be really interesting.

The number of pathways for the processing of chemical stimuli continues to increase with information on the trigeminal and terminal (CN-zero) nerves. While others help to define the pathways, my focus is on the effect of pheromones on hormones, but I agree with you that the research on the different pathways is becoming more interesting each year.

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/2007...e-of-smell

James V. Kohl
http://www.pheromones.com

(05-23-2010 1:52 PM)andrew88777 Wrote:  I did not realize that this would cause such a debate here! I thought it was interesting and useful for everyone to know, when making purchases from her. Its different using an attraction mix, and not feeling the None vibe to it. Like I had mentioned before I use None mostly when I use Instant Jerk. I think that for me, it stimulates my fight response, because of the way I respond. Even though my wife can smell none, if I wear it, I still have worn it around her. Especially when trying out MXs. I believe it triggers a flight response in her, for whatever reasons. There has not been any arousal from her. When I used Turn up the heat, she choked and gagged lol. It did the opposite that night!

Here is the link to Diane's posting on her website. Its down the page some if you want to see it for yourself.
http://www.paradise7.org/Home_Page.html

Thanks for the link Andrew. I think I had her site cached so when I looked before it didnt show. There is only a small percentage of people who can smell Androstenone, your wife is in that percentile I guess. Its certainly not 70% of the total population although it could be 70% of the particular test group that information was derived from.

There are other non-Androstenone products you can use though so its all good. One size doesn't fit all.

Quote:In July or August, I'm planning to formally announce findings from a student researcher, working with my basic study design, under the professorship of a friend. The reported behavioral affect is a first, since others are reporting only changes in mood and/or physiology. Our findings need to be replicated, but they will definitely advance the concept beyond mere predictions and anecdotes.

That's great James I look forward to hearing about it. Is this testing being done in a controlled environment ? That's my pet peev. Life is not a controlled environment which is why I enjoy both the scientific data and the opinions of my fellow users then coming to my own conclusion about what I want to use. That's just my opinion though.

I think it would be hard to to look at any one "pheromone" and say with certainty this is what it will do for everyone who uses it. They cant even do that with drugs its still a prediction. The most we can say is this is what it is likely to do or designed to do. Its still moving the process forward though.

(05-23-2010 2:11 PM)mark-in-dallas Wrote:  How great her mixes are, is something that I really have to question though. It just seems all to odd that right out of the gate every pheromone mix she's offered gets great reviews.

Mark have you tried any of her mixes?

I have tried 2 of them and have had good luck with both. I have reported my use here. I must say I purchased FTL to use around my wife, I have not had any noticable effects from her. That being said I have not used either product enough to find consistancy yet... that takes time.

Her website mentions that she does beta testing. I know I read Snoopyace does some of that for her.

(05-23-2010 2:13 PM)jvkohl Wrote:  Those who are trying to determine whether any chemical has a pheromonal purpose might be better off taking an approach similar to Mark's, but without any preconceived notions about cross-species comparisons from pigs to humans. The fact that primates produce much more dehydroepiandrosterone from their adrenal glands tends to shift attention from our similarities to the differences between us and our mammalian ancestors.

Just to note, I referenced the cross-species pig comparison only to note that Androstenone is a known pheromone in pigs, as well as most other mammals. And, whether we like to admit it or not, we do share much of the same biology and physiology: We all have a brain, heart, 2 lungs, kidney, liver, etc. So, I don't think it's a far jump to think that our chemical makup, effects and responses would be completely different or to terribly far apart.

Are we different? of course. But, we also share quite a bit of commonality. Is Androstenone one of those commonalities? I'm of the belief that it is.

That primates produce greater amounts of DHEA than humans, suggests to me that as humans developed greater social skills and desires beyond merely propagating the species, our reliance on DHEA and it's by-products diminished, and through evolution, our production thereof decreased.

(05-23-2010 2:28 PM)andrew88777 Wrote:  Mark have you tried any of her mixes?

I have tried 2 of them and have had good luck with both. I have reported my use here. I must say I purchased FTL to use around my wife, I have not had any noticable effects from her. That being said I have not used either product enough to find consistancy yet... that takes time.

Her website mentions that she does beta testing. I know I read Snoopyace does some of that for her.

I have not tried any of Diane's mixes, and because of the issues I've had with her, I just don't have any interest. And, even if I did, I don't think that I'd be able to provide a fair and unbiased report.

I read your reports on Pursuit, and it looks like that has worked well for you, but you also say that you've not seen any noticable results from the FTL.

As to Beta testing, she may be doing so now, which is definitely great. But, when she first started selling her products the only testing that might have been done was on her own. Yet, she released a bunch of products within a very short amount of time, and couldn't have possibly had the time to test them extensively, if at all.

I'm not sure what you are getting at when you refer to her not possibly having the time to test them on more than herself (she was researching the compounds before she started her business), but I can say that in addition to the beta testing she also does a lot of research on how each compound she uses is 'supposed' to react and she seems very intuitive in her abilities to take what she's researched and apply it to real world products.

I really wish you feel you could be objective about trying her products because I've found them to work better than just about anything I've found. FTL seems to work on a lot of levels at once and reminds me quite a bit of MX333 in that it is also very bonding as opposed to 'just' sexual. FTL seems to be more consistent for me, however. The crux of the issue for me is, does it work? Yes, I've found they do so I will continue to buy from her. If they didn't, I wouldn't.

(05-23-2010 2:11 PM)mark-in-dallas Wrote:  To steer this thread back to Andrew's original question, and to address Tisha and my original response:


As I recall, Diane didn't like the effects that SHE got from either Androstenone or Methoxyestratetraenone , and as is Diane's nature, if it has a negative effect on her then it's going to have a negative effect on everyone else too.

How great her mixes are, is something that I really have to question though. It just seems all to odd that right out of the gate every pheromone mix she's offered gets great reviews.

I remember when Diane first started experimenting with her own molecules and we planned the Molecule Testing Project, which we had to scrap. The biggest reason the project was scrapped was because Diane started reporting on and listing the effects that users could anticipate for the various molecules, which tainted any reports that would have been written and thus the entire project.

In less than 8 months she has managed to put together a line of products greater than what Androtics, Liquid Alchemy Labs, or almost every other pheromone company have in their consumer line. And, she managed to do so without input or feedback from anyone. There's been no experimentals, no testers for new mixes, no duds and no losers!

And, when she first started, she allowed people to request mixes for specific situations, and magically she was able to blend the perfect combos?

I'm sorry, I just don't buy into any of it. Is it personal, yeah a little. When we started this forum we welcomed Diane with open arms and did everything we could to support her. She responded by personally attacking us at every opportunity, trying to turn the admins against each other, throwing the TRUTH in our faces anytime she didn't get what she wanted, and generally making our lives so miserable that we actually talked about shutting down the forum.

Just like her thread at pheromonetalk, I think it was called Diane's pheromone notes? The one where she states what each putative she has tried does. Problem I have with that thread is that I've seen a lot of users go by those notes then believe (or think) that they'll get the same response. I think that the thread has had a big impact on users when it comes to deciding what to buy over at AD because of going by those notes/own descriptions of what she felt each pheromone/putative did effect wise. I mean the same thing can be said when a user posts a review of a putative, but all the thanks on her specific post really shows that a good amount of users are deciding on what to buy by just reading what she wrote on those pheromones/putatives listed.

(05-23-2010 7:40 PM)mikotorocks714 Wrote:  Just like her thread at pheromonetalk, I think it was called Diane's pheromone notes? The one where she states what each putative she has tried does. Problem I have with that thread is that I've seen a lot of users go by those notes then believe (or think) that they'll get the same response. I think that the thread has had a big impact on users when it comes to deciding what to buy over at AD because of going by those notes/own descriptions of what she felt each pheromone/putative did effect wise. I mean the same thing can be said when a user posts a review of a putative, but all the thanks on her specific post really shows that a good amount of users are deciding on what to buy by just reading what she wrote on those pheromones/putatives listed.

If you are looking at it that way, don't forget to include Madisontate's journal or djandarial or me or anyone who's reviewed the putatives. Anytime ANYBODY posts a glowing review of anything all the newbies clamor to get it and then wonder why it didn't work for them. Most often it is because they didn't understand what to look for yet.