MaCauley, your criticism re in completeness is albeit true, it a bit wrong headed. Tests or categorisations of any kind are limited, the very nature of categorising describes only limited no of variables. For example, I categorise people between short and tall, this tells me nothing about their width, so what? Its still useful info. The fact that it is simple is why it's useful. A personality profiling system with a million different options would be impossible to use practically, the million options would just be fake accuracy too. Mbti works because it's simple and relatively vague, this is not a bad thing, high specificity often results in low accuracy in highly complex systems (saying it's going to rain tomorrow maybe be more accurate than saying it will rain 5 inches worth) or like when economists provide very specific forecast numbers, the accuracy is fake, misleading.

Your point re J/P 50:50 is absolutely right. Mbti looks at personalities bimodally as opposed to normally distributed, this is incorrect imv. The idrlabs article I posted goes into this.

Re career choices. Mbti is a great tool to understand what your personality natural is inclined to. For example, INFJ - dominant function Ni (future oriented abstract thinking), secondary function Fe (empathy, understand other people and their values/emotions). Makes this type more likely to enjoy work as a counsellor, psychologist, etc.
ESTP - dom function Se (taking in the world through their senses in the here and now, very present type, not interested in complex abstract stuff - opposite of Ni), secondary function Ti (logical thinking) - this combination tends to make them enjoy and be better at sports. It's not clear cut, but their are preferences which help us understand ourselves and what we might be best suited to.

Metaltree, strongly advise you study the cognitive functions to find your type. Ombti tests are notoriously bad.

Macro, I don't see how it's wrong headed to question and discuss theories and systems. If we all readily accept it as is, possible improvements are overlooked.

(06-05-2018 5:06 AM)Macro Wrote:  A personality profiling system with a million different options would be impossible to use practically, the million options would just be fake accuracy too.

I agree with this. Peoples life situations and attitudes are always fluctuating so it would be impossible to account for all the inevitable changes. I still think indicators of where the individual are on the spectrum of traits would make it more wholesome accurate. I agree vague isn't a bad thing in this particular system because it increases possibility. Narrowing down in each of the 16 types isn't a good idea because it creates division.

As far as low accuracy in highly complex systems that really depends on the system and the possible variables. It also depends on the competence of system administrators. Flight control in major international airports are run by incredibly advanced systems and they work.

My main issue with MBTI is that they often include opinions and speculation in their analysis. You make some good points about career choices there, but like you said it's obviously not set in stone. As I hinted at before, I think they're on to something and I believe taking the test can provide some valuable information. What I don't like are statements like "INTJ's would works best as engineers" while providing no real evidence of why that's the case. Becoming an engineer depends on other factors than merely dominant cognitive traits. How many McDonald's employees are there in the US? What's the level of competition for various engineering jobs in the current work climate?

The problem with the elimination process of less dominant traits is symbolized by a "three wall theory". Basically you're forced to look in one direction which negates possibility and to an extent, personal responsibility. I also said in other post here that I do identify more as an INTJ than other types. I just don't take the information at face value. While I'm predominantly logical and intellectual, I also have no issues connecting with people on an emotional level.

So mostly what I'm getting at is that while it has a function and is accurate to a point, I don't religiously follow their theories without questioning them and arriving at my own conclusions.

I meant wrong headed in regard to your completeness criticism specifically. Surely this was clear. I did say the criticisms in Blacky Chans article are valid.

The rest of what you say agree. The reason I can use mbti with a great deal of success (effectiveness) is because I hold the models loosely. I remember that they are vague and stereotypical, that real people are far more complex and difficult. I also remember that mbti only describes very particular aspects of personality and there is far far more it doesn't even opine on. I know all the valid criticisms of it and so stop myself falling into the typical pitfalls those that use it religiously do. I'd guess that those that use mbti in that absolute/doctrinal way simply haven't studied it properly (the more you know about mbti the more you realize how limited it is).

With work an ESFP can do anything an INTJ is supposedly naturally excellent in and vice versa. Mbti describes preference not ability. A better statement would be ISTJs (a more natural engineer than INTJ imo) tend to prefer the work of engineering than ESFPs.

(06-05-2018 3:44 AM)Blacky Chan Wrote:  https://www.vice.com/amp/en_us/article/b...t-bullshit

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-new...s-9359770/

https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/2014/7/...eaningless

What makes these articles absolutely ridiculous is that they view the MTBI as something that can be proven or disproven. Psychology is considered a soft science for a reason. Here is an article that takes this point even further: Scientific Proof Is A Myth

Also these authors fail to make a good distinction between the test used to determine personality types vs the underlying model of personality.

Looking at the MTBI as a model of personality the real question is whether the MTBI is useful or not. For me personally I like categorizing people into one of the 16 personality types and I find that useful. Of course there will be differences in personality among people in the same category. Of course you cannot make absolute predictions based on the category of a person. I still find the MTBI a useful tool. People have different personalities and a MTBI categorization for me at least is a starting point to understand people.

Looking at the MTBI test, of course it is flawed. Of course a question or two can lead to a completely different category. Personally I don't believe the test itself is useful but it has some value because it can be entertaining. I think a better way to come up with the personality type is to understand each of the different functions (Ne, Ni, Fe, Fi, T.e, Ti, Se, Si) and try to figure out the dominant function, auxiliary function, tertiary function, and inferior function that way. For me at least I find that understanding these four functions is more useful than the general type (INTP, INFJ, etc...). The best use of the general type is to use it as a tool to understand a persons dominant, auxiliary, tertiary, and inferior functions.

I also believe that different pheromone products can work differently for different personality types and as a result I believe that the MTBI can be a useful model when trying to understand how pheromones work. I believe personality differences is why one respected member can absolutely love one particular pheromone product and another respected member can feel that the same product does nothing.

(06-05-2018 7:31 AM)Macro Wrote:  I meant wrong headed in regard to your completeness criticism specifically. Surely this was clear.

I went back to it and you're right in that it was in relation to completeness. Seems like we're on the same page here. I'm an advocate of possibility and independent thinking, not strict protocols. It's been a good discussion, man.

(06-05-2018 7:43 AM)metaltree Wrote:  I think a better way to come up with the personality type is to understand each of the different functions (Ne, Ni, Fe, Fi, T.e, Ti, Se, Si) and try to figure out the dominant function, auxiliary function, tertiary function, and inferior function that way. For me at least I find that understanding these four functions is more useful than the general type (INTP, INFJ, etc...). The best use of the general type is to use it as a tool to understand a persons dominant, auxiliary, tertiary, and inferior functions.

This is a really good point. They should encourage this level of research and understanding on the testing pages. That way testers will have a better way of getting a more accurate view of themselves as opposed to solely associating with their dominant traits.

Agreed MaCauley, good chat. But INTJ and ENTP do have the best discussions! They're like opposite sides of the same coin.

Absolutely re functions, I type people by finding their dom and auxiliary functions (if you know those two the rest is are automatically defined as they are directly dependent on the first two). Defo best way of doing it, it's just hard to properly understand the functions and know what they look like in people.

I found this quote online about Ni which is the primary cognitive function of INFJs.

Quote:What happens is this. You feed your mind with information and data. You let your unconscious mind process the data. Then, perhaps when you are in the shower, or jogging, the answer just pops into your mind.

It's not magical nor mystical. It's simply that, of the 4 ways to get information (the 4 perceiving functions), Ni is the only one that easily taps into the unconscious. In fact, Ni is the only perceiving function that is not under conscious control.

So unlike someone whose dominant function is say Extraverted Sensing (Se) where they get their information directly from their five senses, a person with dominant Introverted Intuition gets much of their information after it has been processed in the unconscious.

This is exactly how my mind works. I realized this long ago.

This explains why no one gets me when I talk about my subconscious mind. For years in my conversations with people I've talked in terms of what my subconscious mind does or gives me. I'll say something like, "my subconscious mind provided me with the information" or "I have to wait for my subconscious mind to process that". Sometimes people think I'm weird when I talk like that.

Years ago I was on a first date with a girl and I hit a flow state where I was completely relaxed and everything was happening naturally. As we were talking I kind of pushed my leg against her leg as I was looking in her eyes. This was not premeditated in any way it just kind of happened naturally and I barely noticed it happening. This girl is the type of girl who often says whatever is on her mind so she talked a lot and I listened a lot. At one point in the future she told me how smooth it was the way I pushed my leg against her leg in just the right moment. I told her that I can't take credit because I'm normally awkward. Then I said, "My subconscious mind did that. My subconscious mind is smooth, I'm not". She thought that was the funniest thing she ever heard. Once she became my girlfriend she would bring it up from time to time as she reminisced over good times.

I think Ni is one of my greatest strengths with women and my greatest weakness. When my Ni is bubbling things up to the surface and in control then I can be amazing with women. This happens only when I'm completely relaxed so it doesn't happen much on cold approach. But after I have had sex with a woman and I'm completely relaxed I can really connect with a woman and conversation is completely natural and flows beautifully.

When I first meet a girl I often fall into my tertiary cognitive function which is Ti (Introverted Thinking). My Ti is too weak to drive a good conversation but when I'm nervous my Ti completely takes over and shuts down my Ni. When this happens my communication skills suck and if I can manage a conversation the girl gets completely bored and ejects.

(06-11-2018 9:46 AM)metaltree Wrote:  I found this quote online about Ni which is the primary cognitive function of INFJs.


This is exactly how my mind works. I realized this long ago.

This explains why no one gets me when I talk about my subconscious mind. For years in my conversations with people I've talked in terms of what my subconscious mind does or gives me. I'll say something like, "my subconscious mind provided me with the information" or "I have to wait for my subconscious mind to process that". Sometimes people think I'm weird when I talk like that.

Years ago I was on a first date with a girl and I hit a flow state where I was completely relaxed and everything was happening naturally. As we were talking I kind of pushed my leg against her leg as I was looking in her eyes. This was not premeditated in any way it just kind of happened naturally and I barely noticed it happening. This girl is the type of girl who often says whatever is on her mind so she talked a lot and I listened a lot. At one point in the future she told me how smooth it was the way I pushed my leg against her leg in just the right moment. I told her that I can't take credit because I'm normally awkward. Then I said, "My subconscious mind did that. My subconscious mind is smooth, I'm not". She thought that was the funniest thing she ever heard. Once she became my girlfriend she would bring it up from time to time as she reminisced over good times.

I think Ni is one of my greatest strengths with women and my greatest weakness. When my Ni is bubbling things up to the surface and in control then I can be amazing with women. This happens only when I'm completely relaxed so it doesn't happen much on cold approach. But after I have had sex with a woman and I'm completely relaxed I can really connect with a woman and conversation is completely natural and flows beautifully.

When I first meet a girl I often fall into my tertiary cognitive function which is Ti (Introverted Thinking). My Ti is too weak to drive a good conversation but when I'm nervous my Ti completely takes over and shuts down my Ni. When this happens my communication skills suck and if I can manage a conversation the girl gets completely bored and ejects.

What do you do for work? And what phero mixes do you wear?

Asking because i think i am similar.

(06-13-2018 5:24 AM)Bodegaz Wrote:  What do you do for work? And what phero mixes do you wear?

I'm a software developer and I don't use pheromones at work.

I mostly wear pheromones at bars and clubs. INFJs are typically uncomfortable at bars/clubs and I am naturally uncomfortable in those environments. But I put a lot of effort into overcoming that.