I thought the other thread was getting too long so I've brought the potentials over here for further discussion.

I got a price quote and Allopregnenolone is by far the most expensive molecule I've seen so far at $25 per mg wholesale. But it may be relatively inexpensive, depending on the effective dosage. I expect the dosage would be very low.

I've been bugging my supplier about Androstadienol (5,5,16-Androstadiel3[HIGHLIGHT=#ffffff]β[/HIGHLIGHT]-ol). They may be getting some in stock, but I don't know how much or when.


These are my top six choices in order of preference to test (with some CNS effects stated):


Alloprenanolone (5α-PREGNAN-3α-OL-20-ONE) (extremely expensive)
- powerfully agonistic on GABA-A (allosteric)
- known tri-modal, dose-dependent, paradoxical effects

DHEA Sulphate (5, 9, (11)-ANDROSTADIEN-3β-0L-17-ONE Sulphate)
- antagonistic on GABA-A (allosteric)

TH-Doc (5b-PREGNAN-3a, 21-DIOL-20-ONE) [HIGHLIGHT=#ffffff] (this one is very expensive)[/HIGHLIGHT]
- agonistic on GABA-A (allosteric)
- may have gender specific level of response with males showing a greater response

Pregnenolone (5-PREGNEN-3b-OL-20-ONE)
- powerfully antagonistic on GABA-A (allosteric)

3-keto-Androstanone (5α-ANDROSTAN-3-ONE)
- unknown, but reported analgesic and axiolytic effects by users

DHEA (5, 9, (11)-ANDROSTADIEN-3β-0L-17-ONE)
- antagonistic on GABA-A (allosteric)


Others I'd also like to check out in no particular order:


[HIGHLIGHT=#ffffff]5β-ANDROSTAN-3β-OL
- probably [/HIGHLIGHT]antagonistic [HIGHLIGHT=#ffffff]on GABA-A (this one is very expensive)

5α-ANDROSTAN-3β-OL
- may be [/HIGHLIGHT]antagonistic [HIGHLIGHT=#ffffff]on GABA-A[/HIGHLIGHT][HIGHLIGHT=#ffffff] (this one is expensive)[/HIGHLIGHT]

Epiandrosterone (5α-ANDROSTAN-3β-OL-17-ONE)
- may be inhibitory on GABA-A


Here is a typical break-down in concentration in final dilution in products that have alcohol as the carrier.

DHEA-S - 6 mcg/ml (0.006 mg/ml) to 30 mcg/ml (0.03 mg/ml)

DHEA - 6 mcg/ml (0.006 mg/ml) to 30 mcg/ml (0.03 mg/ml)

TH-DOC - 6 mcg/ml (0.006 mg/ml) to 11 mcg/ml (0.011 mg/ml)

3-keto Androstenone - 6 mcg/ml (0.006 mg/ml) to 22 mcg/ml (0.022 mg/ml)

Epi-Androsterone - 11 mcg/ml (0.011 mg/ml) to 28 mcg/ml (0.028 mg/ml)

Allopregnanolone has a hypnotic and sedating/relaxing effect, and is mainly produced in the second two thirds of pregnancy. - unknown effective dosage, probably very low.

- It has potential as an anti-anxiety, social comfort producing and sexual behavior enhancing pheromone.

Pregnenolone is a natural neuro-active steroid that is found inhigh concentrations in certain areas of the brain. It is beingresearched as an aid to memory functioning, and in particular withregards to memory plasticity and aging. - unknown safe dosage, probably very low.

- It has potential as a mood enhancing and attentional pheromone with sexual enhancement elements for older pheromone users.

Beta Androstadienol - my supplier is out of stock. I'm bugging them about this and they are talking to their chemist about making more.

Estradiol:

I thought it might be interesting to try Epiestradiol (1, 3, 5(10)-ESTRATRIEN-3, 17α-DIOL)

I can also get plain old E2 Estradiol (1, 3, 5(10)-ESTRATRIEN-3, 17b-DIOL)

Estratetraenol - this one is $6,000 per gram, but my supplier has it.

Estratrienol - This one had me stumped for a bit. I couldn'tfind this in any of the data bases, but doing a google search it cameup on every pheromone selling website out there. Thankfully enough ofthem also had the complete chemical name: 1, 3,5(10)-ESTRATRIEN-3-OL-17-ONE. This is Estrone and I'm pretty sure my supplier has it.

Diane

It appears that DHEA-S, DHEA, and the epi-androsterone have similar ranges. What 3 concentrations would you like to test of these? I think it should be the same for all three molecules even if you expect results in the lower range for the DHEA than the epi. I also like the idea of giving concentrations in mg or mcg per ml.

I'll stand back and give Xiphoid a chance to weigh-in on these. You've suggested a lot of interesting molecules, but going with a few less expensive ones on the first round will let us refine the template so that future tests will run more smoothly. It will also give us a chance to see what problems will pop up that we haven't considered and which of those we've considered may not be as much of a problem as we thought.

(11-20-2009 1:41 PM)renny Wrote:  It appears that DHEA-S, DHEA, and the epi-androsterone have similar ranges. What 3 concentrations would you like to test of these? I think it should be the same for all three molecules even if you expect results in the lower range for the DHEA than the epi. I also like the idea of giving concentrations in mg or mcg per ml.

I'll stand back and give Xiphoid a chance to weigh-in on these. You've suggested a lot of interesting molecules, but going with a few less expensive ones on the first round will let us refine the template so that future tests will run more smoothly. It will also give us a chance to see what problems will pop up that we haven't considered and which of those we've considered may not be as much of a problem as we thought.

Depending on the effective concentration range Allopregnanolone and 5β,3β Androstanol may still be reasonably priced... if their required concentrations are as low as I think they will be. I'm going to go ahead and purchase a small quantity of these two and run some private tests to see what is effective (at least for me). If the effective range is low enough, these will also be reasonable.

       

These both look very promising.

Dosing on DHEA, DHEA-S, and Epiandrosterone... I'd recommend 1,2, and 4 mcg/spray for DHEA and DHEA-S, plus the same for TH-Doc, Allopregnanolone, Pregnanolone, and 5β,3β Androstanol. But as I said, I'll go ahead and run some preliminaries on the 5β,3β Androstanol and Allopregnanolone.

Epiandrosterone? I'm not sure about that one. The going range in products is usually 1-4 mcg/spray, sometimes 8 mcg/spray, but I really don't get a feel for this molecule, so I don't know if that will be an effective range or not. So, maybe 2, 4 and 8 mcg/spray?

   

The only thing I know for sure about androgen steroids is that 5β,3β epimers are antagonistic (negative modulation) on GABA-A receptors and 5α, 3α- epimers are agonistic (positive modulation, axiolytic) on GABA-A r. With a mixed epimer with 3β, 5α configuration, it may be antagonistic on GABA-A receptors or it may have no effect at all on this receptor.

A better choice might be Epiandrosterone Sulphate. This is much more likely to have a pheromonal effect, which would possibly be inhibitory on GABA-A receptor.

   

Also, androgen steroids that are 3β-epimers with a double bond at the 5 position are agonistic to GABA-A receptors. Androstadienol, could show a positive modulation on GABA-A r. But since this molecule is lacking the ketone or hydroxyl group at position 17, which may be involved in pheromonal receptor binding, I don't know for sure about this one.

   

Diane

My supplier might be able to provide a tiny quantity of Androstadienol.... I'm trying to get a price quote right now. It seems that their chemist is overworked at the moment and some of their molecules are hard to get. I'm bugging them.... consistently.

Diane

(11-22-2009 3:31 PM)Diane999 Wrote:  My supplier might be able to provide a tiny quantity of Androstadienol.... I'm trying to get a price quote right now. It seems that their chemist is overworked at the moment and some of their molecules are hard to get. I'm bugging them.... consistently.

Diane

Keep bugging them

I've done some checking of the other suggested molecules. So far I haven't come across anything that suggests any serious side effects. I'll let you know when I've done some more checking.

I placed an order today that included tiny (5 mg) orders for the following:

Androstadienol
Allopregnanolone
Pregnenolone
Androstadienol
DHEA
DHEA-S
TH-DOC

That will be enough for me to do make up 1 ea. 5 ml test sprayers of:

1.0 mcg/spray (0.01 mcg/mcl)
2.0 mcg/spray (0.03 mcg/mcl)
2.5 mcg/spray (0.03 mcg/mcl)
5.0 mcg/spray (0.07 mcg/mcl)
10.0 mcg/spray (0.13 mcg/mcl)
12.5 mcg/spray (0.17 mcg/mcl)
15.0 mcg/spray (0.20 mcg/mcl)

And that should be enough to do some preliminary tests for each. If any of these seem too strong at 1 mcg/spray, I can always dilute further for more testing.

Yes, I am my own guinea pig.

I'll get them in the mail on Wednesday.

Diane