Quote:Top Ten Signs Your Partner is Avoidant
https://aloftyexistence.wordpress.com/2011/03/02/top-ten-signs-your-partner-is-avoidant/

10. Stresses boundaries
9. Uncomfortable sharing deep feelings
8. Prefers casual sex
7. Disregards your feelings
6. Misses you when apart, but when together wants to escape
5. Pulls away when intimacy nears
4. Idealizes a past relationship or partner, or dreams of “the one”
3. Sends mixed signals
2. Values independence and looks down on “neediness”
1. Fear of commitment/Fear of being “trapped”


Avoidant is one of the three main relationship attachment styles. Avoidants are people who wish to keep their distance and minimize closeness in romantic relationships. They are the least happy in relationships, and tend to blame their unhappiness on their partners.

Avoidants tend not to date other avoidants. Two people with this attachment style lack the “togetherness” that a relationship requires. In addition, avoidants end relationships more quickly. So you are likely to have dated an avoidant in the past or may be now involved with one. If you aren’t sure or need confirmation that you are dealing with a person who has an avoidant attachment style, here are the top ten signs your partner is avoidant (in increasing order of importance):

10. Stresses boundaries

To make sure that their space is not being invaded, avoidants create strict boundaries between themselves and their partners. These boundaries may be physical or emotional — sleeping in a separate room or home or keeping insignificant (or important) information from their partner.

9. Uncomfortable sharing deep feelings

Avoidants don’t like to share their deepest feelings with their partners; withholding feelings allows them to keep their emotional distance and remain self-reliant. Sharing would bring them closer to their partner — exactly what they want to avoid.

Don’t confuse this sign with the anxious partner’s apprehension. It’s integral to understand why the person is withholding feelings. The anxious person keeps feelings because they fear their partner will not feel the same way as them, or their partner will feel stifled and distance themselves. For the avoidant it’s done to keep distance via an emotional boundary.

8. Prefers casual sex

Some avoidants use casual sex as a way to avoid intimacy. They prefer casual sex to sex with an intimate partner because their physical needs are fulfilled but they don’t have to worry about caring for their partner’s feelings afterward or during. They can also avoid the greater intimacy that results from physical contact.

7. Disregards your feelings

Avoidants believe people are solely responsible for their own well-being and happiness. In relationships they tend to treat their romantic partner like a business partner — they ignore their feelings and respond only to the facts. When confronted they make their partner out to be “sensitive”, “overreacting”, or “needy”.

6. Misses you when apart, but when together wants to escape

Avoidants still have the basic need for love and attachment. So avoidants will miss their partner when they are not around. But if their partner returns, so does the avoidant’s feelings of being “trapped”, and they feel like they need more space once again.

5. Pulls away when intimacy nears

At the beginning of dating an avoidant you may think everything is going well. They are attentive, loving, and supportive. But as time goes on they find reasons to pull away. They may say things like “the timing is not right” or comment that things aren’t what they thought they would be.

4. Idealizes a past relationship or partner, or dreams of “the one”

Don’t be confused — dreaming of the ideal partner or dwelling on a past relationship doesn’t mean the avoidant wants true love and intimacy; it is an avoidant mechanism. By idealizing a past relationship, the avoidant safely assures they don’t have to deal their current relationship. They convince themselves they missed out on love with some “perfect” ex or that their current partner is not right for them. This way true love and intimacy are always just out of reach.

Again, don’t misinterpret this sign to indicate an anxious attachment style. Anxious people idealize a past partner or long for the one when not in a relationship. When they are in a relationship, anxious people are more focused on the current. They will most likely idealize their current partner and they would not overlook their current partner for an ideal.

3. Sends mixed signals

Avoidants tend to be on and off about their relationship. One day they are planning to move in with their partner and the next day they act as if they just met them. They will appear sensitive yet distant at the same time. Partners are not sure what to think of them. And when their partner finally decides, the avoidant changes again.

2. Values independence and looks down on “neediness”

If your partner cherishes independence above all, it is a clear sign that they are avoidant. Avoidants believe they are strong and independent, and that they can ultimately only count on themselves. They look down on those that recognize their need for others.

Secures also value independence but not to the same degree. Secure partners realize the importance of both independence and partnership. Avoidants only acknowledge the need for independence.

2. Values independence and looks down on “neediness”

If your partner cherishes independence above all, it is a clear sign that they are avoidant. Avoidants believe they are strong and independent, and that they can ultimately only count on themselves. They look down on those that recognize their need for others.

Secures also value independence but not to the same degree. Secure partners realize the importance of both independence and partnership. Avoidants only acknowledge the need for independence.

1. Fear of commitment/Fear of being “trapped”

The number one sign that your partner is avoidant is if they fear being trapped into a long-term commitment or marriage. Avoidants are constantly on the look-out for any impingement on their space and anyone wanting to create more intimacy. Remember, this is a constant mode of thinking with the avoidant, not a one-time concern.

(02-07-2015 9:15 AM)MeltingAsh Wrote:  Alright, totally lied on the survey or had mones affecting my responses. Based on what you listed pretty well perfectly describes what I have been trying to change about myself. My wife and previous relationships have described me as almost emotionless. We also tend to be different (thought this was just a guy thing) where I connect with sex and her intimacy. We both always want more of our preference of course to give the other. I do not have an interest in strangers though , I actually prefer solitude.

(02-14-2015 3:00 PM)MeltingAsh Wrote:  Are there any 'mones that have self effects on you that will temporarily smooth over your Avoidant style?

Apologies, was away for a bit. I think Tac is the most effective as it makes me want to sit still. Mixing it was the smurf gel seems to allow for together time where I do not see an immediate need to move to a separate couch or room.

(02-22-2015 8:25 PM)MeltingAsh Wrote:  Perhaps Androstadienone and tac for relaxing and possible DHEA for a hormone balancing. I was thinking about ordering DHEA or DHEAS. What sort of experience have you had with it?

Quote:5. Is a Narcissist or Displays Narcissistic Traits

Love Avoidants are prone to narcissism. Not all are full-blown narcissists; nevertheless, a majority will almost certainly present some traits of narcissism. Narcissism is an undeniable indicator that a person is not intimately engaged in a relationship.

A Narcissist may show two faces -- the one they wear in public, and the one they wear in close interpersonal relationships; which is not a good one. On the outside in public, they can present a nice, pleasant exterior. People who are not close to them may view them as a fun, confident, charming, outgoing, social person.

Only those close to the narcissist have any idea there is more to them than this one fictitious face. Behind their façade of tough-skin, strength, and charisma is a very fragile, wounded person who is thinks the world is all about him/her and feels above their relationship partner.

One telling trait of narcissism is the sense of entitlement. They want what they want when they want it. You can forget what you want- they do not care. They feel their needs and wants are all that matters; and their attitude is you should feel the same. Furthermore, you should NOT expect to have your needs and wants met, or even heard. They expect you to anticipate their every wish and if you do not – look out! - As they may lash with anger, rage, and strike back by devaluing and demeaning you as a person.

Other narcissistic traits:

-- Lacks empathy. Emotional support or understanding is minimal at best. Inability to identify with and understand your feelings; fails to recognize or care about what you are going through or experiencing; cold and aloof towards your feelings; displays an inability to be caring or compassionate through difficult times.

-- Has difficulty taking responsibility or admitting mistakes. When arguments or issues inevitably occur, he/she rarely feels accountable as being part of the problem. All relational troubles and predicaments are yours and yours only. They will never admit defeat. They have a selective memory of events, and seldom take ownership of past (or present) behavior that seems imperfect or unpleasant to them. They twist the facts, and in so doing, make you the ‘crazy’ one for even suggesting they somehow had a part of any problematic matter.

-- Grandiose: Is impracticable and idealistic in view of themselves. Has an extreme sense of superiority and self-importance; Their self esteem seems high, however it is false self esteem as it is only gained by viewing others as “less than” and the self as “better than”. They comprise a brazen mental state that it is always and forever, about him/her. They have a need for unconditional admiration, admiration, attention, but only on a superficial level.

-- Easily becomes defensive/feels threatened: If you are not propping him/her on the high artificial pedestal, he/she often becomes offended, slighted, or bitter. When you call them out or confront them on an issue, inappropriate comment or behavior, or if you set a boundary, share a differing view, opinion, or belief— they easily view it as a threat; and consider it an attack on themselves. More often than not, their response is to become defensive then strike back with rage, fury, power games, revengeful tactics, or passive aggressive behavior's.

* You may also notice narcissistic behavior's in your partners relationships with others (family, friends, coworkers, etc.)

(05-06-2015 3:44 AM)stefdude Wrote:  Have you tried couples therapy?

(05-06-2015 11:01 AM)dexter Wrote:  thanks stefdude, your reply makes me think people actually read this.


Yes, still trying Couples therapy. It turns out that one of the stereotypical things about Narc's is that they don't do well with therapy. The conflict resides in the idea that Narc's need to show the world their "Perfect Image" which is their "False Self", to admit that they need to change by needing therapy goes against that perfection.
Needing to change = Flaws & Imperfection
So they will go to therapy, but usually it is only because it is "THE OTHER PERSONS FAULT OR PROBLEM" that will be worked on.

She came to therapy with me under the guise that it was to work on my problems. It was a Therapist who specialized in EFT (Emotionally Focused Therapy) and who worked with Attachment Theory. She also admitted that it wasn't all my fault, that some of the problem was with her. But promptly followed it up with "95% me, 5% her". And the therapy was a very "safe" place. It wasn't confrontational at all. But now she doesn't want to go back because she doesn't want to work on marriage stuff until "I'm all better, and have my stuff worked out".

Here's the irony, the marriage stuff "IS" my stuff. Did I mention that I'm an ENFP and an Anxious-Attachment type.

(05-06-2015 11:25 AM)MeltingAsh Wrote:  Hey, didn't see you active in this thread again. Sorry the smurf gel is not helping. Which in hindsight seems right where I am more like your wife and my wife like you. Where it has been 17 years, nothing has changed other then your label of the situation. Try not to overfocus as that will create the opposite effect from her. Best you can do is mutually agreeing to some kind of a schedule that is focused on what you need from her then the same for her. I think from other posts you mentioned she already has her alone time booked. That may not be therapy now but just time where you are together and she knows what you need during that time. No comfort products work on her? I have not finished your journal but early on you definitely were getting allot more then me and at least products were affecting bring. Guessing you already made your way through Androstadienone , alpha nude, xist, goa, imprint , and whatever else. At the very least you being able to talk about it can help some. She may be willing to try subs while exercising or go crazy and try hypo. Good luck. All the best. Above is all my opinion. I am no expert and am trying now on my end to dig out of the whole I have created by being indifferent.

(05-07-2015 3:04 AM)kimosabe Wrote:  David X, who teaches men to meet women, has an interesting philosophy - In your relationship with your wife, do you know where you stand?

Number 1. You're number 1.

In her perspective, she's Number 1 and you're Number 2.

Turn that anxious attachment around. From them to you, instead of from you to them.

From your perspective, YOU'RE top dog. YOU'RE head honcho. YOU'RE the desirable man. Come from that mindset, don't delve too much into the psycho-mechanics of how to do it. Sure, you'll stumble the first few times but that's how we all learned to walk.

(05-06-2015 1:50 PM)stefdude Wrote:  Displaying narcissistic traits is not equal to personality disorder of narcissistic type.I know how hard is the second is from experience in my family circle.I'm just saying this to be careful how you filter what you read, what is to be attributed to her and what not since you are in a sensitive and emotional state.

(05-06-2015 5:17 PM)MeltingAsh Wrote:  Wow, your last few lines were pretty extreme, but I can see it in a way. I myself am almost middle aged and still do not have a firm grasp on feelings. For example, if you were to leave her tomorrow and say, "that's it we are done" discontinue contact for about a week and then talk to her. Good chance she would then feel something. It would definitely illicit a response. Perhaps not the one you may want, but a response with emotion would be there. Allot of it may be that it is hard to imagine what it is like without you. The comfort is there and that is how the world is.

This may be the worst advice in the world, but what she needs now is space. If she does also fit the mold you have created with the labels, then she also needs specific other things that you provide in your every day lives. In whatever ways you convenience her being that feeds her, stop. Go to therapy yourself, until it feels like time to reintroduce her. Otherwise, continue on your track, not in anger, but taking into consideration any of the points she mentioned that may have some validity, doing whatever you want to do for yourself. Be selfish for awhile and find the least destructive ways to feed your needs.

When you are past the anger of the patterns which have always been there or present for years and know that if it wasn't you, she would probably do the same thing(s) to whoever and that is just who she is, you then need to decide if she is still the one that you want to be with and how you can work together to give each other what you need. It may be just you working it at first, or the time you take now to yourself could be the spark she needs to see that she needs you too.

Once again though, I screw my own life up constantly with my own inability to feel along with my patterns of disappearing to myself vs family or couple alone time, hence , just my opinions on me thinking what may impact me.

In the end, you are important and need to make sure what you do, is helping your ability to do what is best for you and your well being (possibly your children s as well). She will either join you eventually or ignore you. That is more of a wait and see type of thing.

(05-07-2015 2:44 AM)moe Wrote:  I feel bad for you Dexter. I know how it feels.. the betrayal, the anger.. Being violently thrown into a different reality. Believing in something and then seeing the harsh truth, like you had swallowed the red pill and seen the matrix. I went through this. twice. It fuc*ing hurts.
Things more or less softened down and the anger eventually fades away, even though it stays buried deep down and sometimes it wants to surface. But perhaps that's my fault cause I don't think I made the right choice.

I'm with you wholeheartedly and I truly hope you will be able to see more clearly in the next few days/weeks and that you will be able to change the situation like you wish. As Metling said, you need to be a bit selfish and think about you and what is the best for you.

M.

(05-06-2015 12:49 PM)dexter Wrote:  Any and all insights are appreciated.

Quote:This has totally shaken my world and although I saw all the symptoms over the past 17 years I've been married to her, I never could put my finger on it. This has some very real scary stuff associated with it and I can't beleive I didn't figure it out sooner...

Quote:All of a sudden my life has turned into a scary movie, and you realize that nobody will believe you, it gets worse...

Quote:...As if I am seeing thru some conspiracy in some mystery/thriller movie. Where everything used to seem normal and I viewed all my problems as all my fault...

Quote:"I never have loved you",
"I only married you because all my friends were getting married and you were stable enough",
"I've thought that you were a piece of crap with 2 legs for years",
"the only reason I stay married is that the kids need a dad".

Quote:It's obvious that I'm going about this wrong...

(09-03-2015 6:34 PM)Cremaster Wrote:  My father is/was NPD so I think I can understand what you're going through. Ah, the stories I could tell you.

Quote:This has totally shaken my world and although I saw all the symptoms over the past 17 years I've been married to her, I never could put my finger on it. This has some very real scary stuff associated with it and I can't beleive I didn't figure it out sooner...

My mother was a psychiatric nurse for 30-some odd years, and she never could 'diagnose' him. They are really good at presenting a false-face to the world, while at the same time getting those close to them to doubt themselves. ('splitting')

Quote:All of a sudden my life has turned into a scary movie, and you realize that nobody will believe you, it gets worse...

Narcissts are masters at 'gaslighting' people close to them. You must be aware (all the time) what she is trying to do, and DO NOT buy into her frame. (I think you've managed this already, just some friendly reinforcement!)

Quote:"I never have loved you",
"I only married you because all my friends were getting married and you were stable enough",
"I've thought that you were a piece of crap with 2 legs for years",
"the only reason I stay married is that the kids need a dad".

There is a lot of carryover between NPD and Sociopaths/Psychopaths. (And a lot of 'co-morbidity' between ALL the personality disorders.)

As far as her statements to you; 1 is probably true in that she is incapable of loving (another person). The 2nd and 4th statements are outright LIES. She is afraid of appearing as a failure, which both 'spinsterhood' and divorce would represent. (Remember: control your frame!)

The other thing NPDer's tend to do is to assign 'roles' to people. Not based on any in-depth understanding of others, rather to 'play roles' in the internal drama that the NPDer is acting out. (With themselves as the 'Mary Sue' of the story.)

Quote:It's obvious that I'm going about this wrong...

There is no 'cure' or effective treatment for NPD. (Haven`t read the book you recommended) The only thing you can do is work on yourself, and try to avoid the huge "time-suck" that she represents.

And, 1 last thing: she will get worse as she ages. (So "GO SLOW & CAREFUL" until you decide to "RUN"!)

(09-15-2015 1:50 PM)eibmoz Wrote:  Paradox, i can send you some IronMagLabs E-Control Androstenetrione if interested.

(09-16-2015 10:45 AM)GoergeFocky Wrote:  I take it it's no longer available for regular purchase? The E.control stuff was what dbot and th gang used for there OXO-mix, which seemed to be very effective

Quote:Secure
Avoidant - AKA: Fearful-Avoidant, Dismissive, Insecure-Dismissing, Dismissive-Avoidant, Defended, Type A3-Type A8
Anxious - AKA: Ambivolent, Anxious-Resistant, Insecure-Preoccupied, Coercive, Type C3-Type C8
Disorganized - AKA: Insecure-Disorganized, Disoriented, Anxious-Avoidant, Fearful-Avoidant
RAD [Reactive Attachment Disorder] - DAD [Disinhibited Attachment Disorder]

Quote:Avoidant Attachment Style Indicators
-an individual may describe themselves as *
-INDEPENDANT
-NEEDS THEIR SPACE
-They end their relationships more frequently.
-They cheat more than other styles.
-Avoidants who divorce are more likely to divorce again.
-They suppress loving emotions, so they “get over” partners very quickly and start dating again immediately.
-Avoidants don’t date one another, because they lack the “glue” that keeps people together. As a result, more of them are single at any given time.
-Sends mixed messages, e.g. push-pull.
-Disregards your emotional well-being.
-Suggests that you are too needy, too sensitive or overreacting.
-Ignores things you say that inconvenience him – doesn’t respond or changes topic.
-Addresses your concerns in a “court of law” – responds to the facts without taking feelings into account.
-Defensive argument style, threatened by criticism.
-Sets boundaries, keeps his distance.
-Separates sex from emotional intimacy.
-Uses Miranda Rights in dating: Warns you up front that he is a “bad boyfriend,” not ready for commitment, etc. to absolve himself of emotional responsibility. But doesn’t walk away; “If you get hurt, it’s your own fault.”

http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2014/06/11/relationshipstrategies/avoid-this-attachment-style-in-dating/

Quote:In humans, intranasal or intravenous application of OT was reported to improve a broad variety of complex social behaviours (for reviews see Heinrichs et al., 2009, MacDonald & MacDonald, 2010, Meyer-Lindenberg, 2008).
Specifically, intranasal OT increased trust in healthy men (Kosfeld et al., 2005) and even prevented betrayal-triggered decrease in trust (Baumgartner et al., 2008). In this context, OT increased ratings for trustworthiness and attractiveness of unfamiliar faces (Theodoridou et al., 2009). Moreover, OT"“treated subjects were significantly more generous than placebo-treated men during a generosity game (Zak et al., 2007). In general, OT seems to improve the interpretation of social cues (Domes et al., 2007b, Kosfeld et al., 2005), especially the recognition of fear (Fischer-Shofty el al., 2010).. OT also facilitates the recognition of faces (Rimmele et al., 2009) most effectively when they express positive emotion (Guastella et al., 2008b, Savaskan et al., 2008). In the context of ASD associated with avoidance of eye contact it is important to mention that OT promotes a gaze-shift towards the eye region of presented faces (Guastella et al., 2008a) also independent of their valence as this normally occurs during presentation of fearful faces (Gamer & Buchel, 2009). In the context of OT promoting social bondings it is of interest to mention initial studies demonstrating that OT enhanced attachment security (Buchheim et al., 2009)

Quote:On a more neurophysiological level, human functional imaging studies (fMRI) indicated that OT reduces amygdala responses to threatening, non-social scenes and to angry and fearful faces (Kirsch et al., 2005). More specifically, it could be shown that OT promotes the activity in amygdala regions involved in the processing of positive social stimuli (Gamer et al., 2010), an effect that was shown to generalize to facial expressions, irrespective of their valence (Domes et al., 2007a).

Quote:https://team.sainc.com/n2/Files/W3_BosJackman.pdf
Human Chemical Communication: A Starting Point-Cognition and Exhaled Breath Narrative Networks workshop 6-30-11
Joany Jackman, Ph.D. and Nathan Bos, Ph.D.
Johns Hopkins University Applied Physics Laboratory,
11100 Johns Hopkins Rd., Laurel, MD

Oxytocin thought to works through amygdala, area of brain responsible for emotional memory
•Oxytocin injected into blood crosses blood brain barrier poorly (1/2 in blood ~5 min)
•Receptors for oxytocin found in nasal bulb in all mammals from rats to humans
•Oxytocin released in breath
•Inhaled oxytocin binds nasal receptors