LOL! Yea, her and Radman are hysterical.

If you would like to bring the argument over here. I'd be more than happy to oblige.

maybe you would care to address the matter with the links posted in this thread?

(06-20-2011 3:18 PM)mengster Wrote:  maybe you would care to address the matter with the links posted in this thread?

So dbot's original argument was "why doesn't AD reveal the molecule names for the putatives"

Argument on both sides go on.

So the thread got derailed from a simple answer to attacking AD's reasonings for why they do the things they do. Then we have the past constantly being brought up over and over again.

People jump in from both sides, AD *cheerleaders* jump in from another and it's a free for all.

Unfortunately, everyone is pretty one sided, both from (ill say I'm on AD's side) and yours.

But realistically

The products work. They have no obligation to really tell you anything more than that. dbot, realistically no one in their right mind would tell you, from a business sense, what their putatives are. You're obviously getting enough of the testers and products here from the research of everyone else that you don't need AD to reveal it, but felt that you still had to say something knowing full well what the answer would be. Let's be honest, you probably wanted to egg things on to begin with anyway. You can leave well enough alone and let the experienced and seasoned members here help you out on that.

The end of the day too, you get pretty good rewards (from purchases), ability to get points (New User Forum). Steve and Mickaelia are aweomse. So as frustrating as the "rolling blackouts" are not everything you hear is cloak and dagger. I've been privy to some information that actually has come to light that I knew months before anything happened.

Also if you read what I said, they reveal what they can at the point and leave things out when they can't tell you outright.

@Mustang - I appreciate that your tone here is reasonable. I agree that everything went sideways in that thread.

My original intention was just to give a little push of encouragement for Androtics to maybe stop being so secretive about everything. There really is no valid reason for their unnamed molecules to remain unnamed, particularly in the case where they are molecules well-known in the rest of the pheromone community. A lot of very smart and sensitive people have invested a lot of themselves into reporting on putatives only to find that their research is essentially wasted. That is why I am offended by the encoding of putatives.

I understand your argument that Androtics gives "discounts" in exchange for reports, but you should also understand that if you look at their pricing for named experimones versus prices from other US-based manufacturers, you will find that their "discounted" prices are still a higher.

What really gets my blood boiling is the manipulation and misdirection with which these types of concerns are met. Look through John Sebastian's answers to all the concerns in that thread and just notice how he is constantly misdirecting. And ask yourself with each misdirection what he is trying to make you, the loyal customer, feel.

I mention other vendors, and JS responds with nebulous claims about other vendors' shady dealings. I counter those nebulous claims and ask some awkward questions, and an attempt is made to tie me to nefarious economic motives. I clarify my motives in a believable way, and an attempt is made to portray me as a rube caught up in the deceits this forum, which John Sebastian falsely claimed is a for-profit institution.

And all the while it just breaks his heart that his loving discounts have not won eternal loyalty.

(06-20-2011 3:58 PM)dbot Wrote:  @Mustang - I appreciate that your tone here is reasonable. I agree that everything went sideways in that thread.

My original intention was just to give a little push of encouragement for Androtics to maybe stop being so secretive about everything. There really is no valid reason for their unnamed molecules to remain unnamed, particularly in the case where they are molecules well-known in the rest of the pheromone community. A lot of very smart and sensitive people have invested a lot of themselves into reporting on putatives only to find that their research is essentially wasted. That is why I am offended by the encoding of putatives.

I understand your argument that Androtics gives "discounts" in exchange for reports, but you should also understand that if you look at their pricing for named experimones versus prices from other US-based manufacturers, you will find that their "discounted" prices are still a higher.

What really gets my blood boiling is the manipulation and misdirection with which these types of concerns are met. Look through John Sebastian's answers to all the concerns in that thread and just notice how he is constantly misdirecting. And ask yourself with each misdirection what he is trying to make you, the loyal customer, feel.

I mention other vendors, and JS responds with nebulous claims about other vendors' shady dealings. I counter those nebulous claims and ask some awkward questions, and an attempt is made to tie me to nefarious economic motives. I clarify my motives in a believable way, and an attempt is made to portray me as a rube caught up in the deceits this forum, which John Sebastian falsely claimed is a for-profit institution.

And all the while it just breaks his heart that his loving discounts have not won eternal loyalty.

To be fair on both sides. NLP tactics or not, I've spoken with John over the phone and even through his webcast, and I've asked him the question about a product which I know he sidestepped but clearly answered when asked again. It came to me he can't always reveal things, but it wasn't with "dark" intent.

I've also spoke with Jasmin, and while I get other people's opinions about her "tactics" she is a genuine person. She'd be damn good if she's notoriously evil cause how she portrays herself seems to be someone who's had good intentions but just got tired of everything else and made general broad comments that have been attack and misconstrued.

They're not dumb, they know this place exists. And while we have loyal AD clients like myself, some of the claims that come out are way too one minded and one sided which is why I get defensive. That's something I do, AD or not withstanding.

This isn't an attack on mark, which I respect what you're trying to do here, but I'm also not going to go on the links and "facts" alone. Enough facts without context can be shown to make something look good or look bad. Between the exodus of the forum members from PT1 to here, and bella and tisha leaving here, I'm sorry to say that I wouldn't believe everything that's coming out of both forums.

In closing, they both have good intents, but they both have their dark sides as well.

In reality we will always have two sides (or more in other cases). The way things seem on the surface make it out to be that P51 is a lobsterback and Dbot one of the infamous minutemen. I do not know Bella or Tisha in any personal terms even on a internet basis but I believe their choices were more "personal" rather than a an actual turning point or "changing of sides". Tisha has always been a positive enabler of sorts as she disseminates wisdom as effectively and tactfully as she can. And Bella I certainly see her as a fun girl on the forum with little politics about her as far as these forums are concerned.

P51 is a stand up dude although some of his loyalist bits can be unnerving at times. Wildflower is certainly another loyalist of AD but he has my respect with his insights into pheroalchemy. I give to give a huge BRAVO to Dbot from making progress in revolutionizing how we perceive and go about pheromones. As strongly as you guys influence Pheromones whether in PTalk or PTruth you all still represent minnows in such a large ocean. I dont think any of you can be representative of the whole or lay claim to whatever dark side one claims the other is withholding.

Very rarely can any company or entity stay truly pure at heart. There will always be an underlying theme or goal in which they will do whatever it takes to obtain it even if it takes some principle bending rationalities to enable themselves. At least that remains to be my view. One of my favorite fictional books has a rule that entails:

Given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe its true, or because they're afraid it might be true. Peoples' heads are full of knowledge, facts and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true. People are stupid; they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so are all the easier to fool.

(06-20-2011 4:36 PM)Pherotrinity Wrote:  In reality we will always have two sides (or more in other cases). The way things seem on the surface make it out to be that P51 is a lobsterback and Dbot one of the infamous minutemen. I do not know Bella or Tisha in any personal terms even on a internet basis but I believe their choices were more "personal" rather than a an actual turning point or "changing of sides". Tisha has always been a positive enabler of sorts as she disseminates wisdom as effectively and tactfully as she can. And Bella I certainly see her as a fun girl on the forum with little politics about her as far as these forums are concerned.

P51 is a stand up dude although some of his loyalist bits can be unnerving at times. Wildflower is certainly another loyalist of AD but he has my respect with his insights into pheroalchemy. I give to give a huge BRAVO to Dbot from making progress in revolutionizing how we perceive and go about pheromones. As strongly as you guys influence Pheromones whether in PTalk or PTruth you all still represent minnows in such a large ocean. I dont think any of you can be representative of the whole or lay claim to whatever dark side one claims the other is withholding.

Very rarely can any company or entity stay truly pure at heart. There will always be an underlying theme or goal in which they will do whatever it takes to obtain it even if it takes some principle bending rationalities to enable themselves. At least that remains to be my view. One of my favorite fictional books has a rule that entails:

Given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe its true, or because they're afraid it might be true. Peoples' heads are full of knowledge, facts and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true. People are stupid; they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so are all the easier to fool.

Not taking away from dbot, which is a good thing what he's doing, is that people have been doing this before him.

There are a lot more I want to come out and say but I can't out of respect for privacy and confidentiality.

Pherotrinity.

When I defend AD, it's not just the company but the community there as a whole.

I've read it all, been on this forum a while, and showed the others about this place as well. After going through everything I know I can still trust AD and while most of the posts there have their merits. The underlying cause of that issue still comes back to the same (forgive the analogy) evil empire comparisons.

(06-20-2011 3:46 PM)Mustang Wrote:  The products work. They have no obligation to really tell you anything more than that.

The small bit of their products that make up my inventory (I'll post pics, so y'all can get an idea some time of how many pheromones I own), do work fantastically. Although I still can't understand why the P74+P83 nets me this dramatic lesbian hits???? (another story for another time & of course my SO does nothing to intervene on those ). Of course they don't have a legal obligation to say, but they should feel an ethical obligation to @least say what results the products were designed to produce. Instead they release things under top secret code names & then wave the practice off as being for research purposes, all the while never actually saying anything helpful about the actual product. They let y'all (the consumer) "report" back, whilst spending your hard earned money to be their lab rats. In the long run the only people benefiting from this business model is them & not their
valuable clients, because you never get a straight answer about what's in the products. Which also means that they can change products' formulas at will, with no repercussions, because y'all never knew what the products were actually supposed to do in the first place. Blends are all about ratios, they could release a list w/ some components that are common to most blends (which doesn't have to be in the traditional descending order), & still have the same safety from their formula's being copied, whilst maintaining a bit more integrity, imo. In the end it's up to consumers, whether they choose to spend money with a company if they question they're integrity. There are a ton of other products that are equal to what they sell, so arguing the issue makes no sense either way, when you can let your money do the talking. Which I have, meaning I don't buy or comment on their products. If the products work for you & have a good business relationship with them, then I am happy for you & I can see your side. Anyway, this is all I have to say about the matter.

You may defend the community as a whole and that is honorable but no company IMO can use its own peers to be reflective of its own business etiquette/ public relations. Its like me saying there are some decent men and women in the senate/congress but the entity of our government seems so self consuming that any ideal or purpose set out to help the average american is laid to waste with false promises, underhanded activity, and a push for profit/gain over improving the status quo of our own country.

I'm no spring chicken as far as PT1 is concerned. Theres many promises and claims on AD's end that will stay as they are to no avail. Many of the promises could go on endlessly with proclaimed setback, emotional distress, loss of a chemist and so forth. This isnt to say any of those claims aren't true whatsoever. I would prefer if the company was more reasonable with expectations and be a bit more real with the customers on "certain" fronts. I'm not even talking for myself personally as I have managed to get most of the things I've wanted (customer service and product wise) without being a constant discrepancy sort of customer (although much of it by luck)
Even if many of AD's claims are verifiable they should never be shoved down the customers' throat. Sometimes the only way to play is by playing both sides and being politically correct. What I mean by this is there is so much slander about other phero names whether its the dude running the company or simply the name of the competition itself it makes you wonder why AD has to constantly play the "Prince on a White horse" bit when a truly alpha person in comparison never has to reason or prove anything. His example shows you more than any amount of speeches or announcements that a less than apt leader could give (see: President Obama)

The strength of PT1's following dwindles by the day. The few higher members that have stayed are either helpers of some kind (tisha, radman variety), the in-betweeners such as hyper, pago etc, and the loyalists such as yourself. I honestly have no bone to pick with AD as they are apart of my past good/bad and they are a company like any other trying to obtain or preserve financial viability. The world of pheromones just like our whole world should be one. Obviously that can never be with such prejudices and criticisms about whether conjured or real.