You may think I'm dissing feminists or feminism but I'm not. What I'm telling you is that it is unproductive to argue with them. You will never be right, by virtue of being a man. Doesn't matter if you make a great point, you're mansplaining. Don't believe me?? Ask a woman the last time she apologized. To a man. I'll wait.

Usually doesn't happen too often with me, because my vibe isn't like that. In fact, I agree with most (90%+) of what feminism is about. Or should I say 90%+ of what feminists I encounter talk about.

But reasoning can quickly become circular. Maybe there's an issue with how a woman or women are portrayed in a show. If you bring to attention that the writers are women, maybe they bark back about the showrunners. And that if the showrunners are men, it doesn't matter. But that disregards the agency of the writers or anyone else involved in the process.

Or maybe in a conversation about consent, a blanket statement is made: never attempt to kiss or touch a woman without her explicit consent, EVER. However, I fuck a lot of self-identified feminists, and I have never explicitly asked to kiss or touch them. Why? Because implicit consent exists. But it's impossible to argue. Also, who defines consent? Different cultures contextualize consent differently. White consent (asking before you do anything) being the default/right way adds a layer of racism.

To be honest, I don't like arguing with anyone. Which is why you rarely see me do it here. It's easier to allow people to believe what they want to believe and say what they want to say. You're not going to get any special prize for proving someone wrong or proving yourself right. So save the arguments for defending your PhD.

I can empathize with men afraid to approach women due to being labeled "creepy" or "misogynistic." Yet, the same women who may emphatically spout this wish a man would approach them! They crave dominant men...in fact, they are some of the most submissive people I've ever encountered. This is experience talking.

Hopefully, this isn't politicized, because that's not what I'm going for. This is more about not allowing yourself to get caught up in an unproductive interaction that may ruin a potentially great time for both parties. You should be listening more anyway...a lot of women just want to be heard and validated/affirmed in their experiences. They're not really looking for your solutions or criticism.

I would take this one step further and say don't argue with anyone. The need to be right and get one's point across is an ego driven behavior.

I think there could be ways to communicate with a die hard feminist by putting yourself in her shoes and asking a question in a way that doesn't trigger her. For example, you can ask her, "If you were with a man you were intensely attracted to and looked at him directly in the eyes in a way that made it obvious that you wanted to be kissed, would you still require verbal consent to be kissed?" That would get her to think about verbal vs non-verbal consent without challenging her belief system.

(07-09-2019 8:14 AM)metaltree Wrote:  I would take this one step further and say don't argue with anyone. The need to be right and get one's point across is an ego driven behavior.

I would opine that the need to be right is, indeed, ego-driven behavior; but the desire to get one's point across is the mettle of human debate and philosophy.

Without breaking the train here, I'd say that i agree that any particular special interest group or movement, most especially those who's alignment is directed against another faction, tends to be closed-minded, devoid of any desire to consider an opposing point of view, or otherwise exactly how Nikki described.

(07-09-2019 8:32 AM)Gladen Wrote:  any particular special interest group or movement, most especially those who's alignment is directed against another faction, tends to be closed-minded, devoid of any desire to consider an opposing point of view, or otherwise exactly how Nikki described.

I agree with this for sure.

Arguing and debating are two different things.

People often argue their opinions, which is a different matter.

People often identify themselves with words, it's a trap.

A person wants to stand up to something they perceive as wrong, is labelled a protester. They never use the word 'concerned citizen'.

Liberal, conservative, right wing, left wing... feminist.

Sometimes people need to be called out on their bullshit. The harder someone is sleeping, the harder you have to shake them, to wake them up.

When I hear someone saying they are an animal lover, while eating a bacon cheeseburger, I call them out, because their lying to themselves.

Peace

I tend to agree with the title of this thread. In addition, if you’re a man who likes to only sleep with the hottest model type girls, feminists will try to shut you down every time.

My own sister is this type of woman, a class A bitch who is a control freak. She believes she’s just exercising women’s rights. If I try to share my opinion she’ll fight back every time. The best way I’ve found to deal with people like this is to ignore them.

It’s either a feminist thing or a jealousy thing. Not to be rude, but many feminists are 5’s jealous of the 9’s and 10’s. If they had extreme beauty, youth etc they wouldn’t be so quick to argue. Instead they’d act more feminine.

My guess, feminism made it worse but those girls are masculine to the core already.
On the arguing, with guys it's petty much the same, maybe a bit less, it's the way we talked, like Russianwolf said people identify themselves with words, their ego gets in the way.

(07-09-2019 9:45 AM)RussianWolf Wrote:  Arguing and debating are two different things.

Practically no one actually debates. To debate requires all participants to follow a set of rules that date back to Ancient Greece. If all participants first studied logic and were familiar with all the major logical fallacies then a debate would be possible. I have never come across a "debate" in which both participants provided reasoning for their positions that wasn't littered with logical fallacies.

List of logical fallacies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

(07-09-2019 3:20 PM)metaltree Wrote:  To debate requires all participants to follow a set of rules that date back to Ancient Greece.

I have to disagree, all you really need is an open mind and a degree of respect. That's just an opinion though.

It's all down to the level of feminism which a woman has. A radical feminist is best avoided and ignored. A woman with moderate feminist beliefs can sometimes be reasoned with on some points.
In Spain and much of Southern Europe, feminism is more of a trend than a mindset. I've "debated" points with some of my female friends, and its not difficult to tie them up in knots.