(08-10-2011 2:07 AM)Pheroman Wrote:  So are you saying is there is no difference between common ingredients found in pheromone products and amphetamines, opiate and barbituates?

I'm wondering what you think the difference is.

another question is, does it work?

When not is this discusion already nonsense!

I think if substances aren't endogen they aren't specific enough to work in such low amounts on the receptores!

I don't want to rate persons who are doing such experiments because I like it to experiment but I hope they do it with enough caution and I also hope it doesn't go so far with such experiments that anytime people think they have to dilute their whole medicine shelf and spray it on them!


The question is just the same as with modification on genes! How far will you go!

(08-09-2011 9:27 PM)Pheroman Wrote:  And I dont use anything that is or feels in any way affecting my cognitive abilities.

The feeling that your cognitive abilities aren't affected may be a side effect of the molecules. It would be catch 22, you can't be crazy AND think that you are crazy. Or in otherwords, you can't really know you aren't impaired if you are indeed impaired.

(08-09-2011 12:33 PM)dexter Wrote:  Can we draw a clear line between molecule use as pheromone and molecule use as medicine based on the dosage level?

(08-09-2011 9:27 PM)Pheroman Wrote:  And if your going to do research, then do it properly and scientifically.
What your doing does not draw any lines, and while there may be no clear lines there still are big differences between pheromone and pheromone "effect".

I felt the my entire post was trying to elucidate "THE LINE". I feel the line I drew was as wide as a highway, and perhaps because the line was more of a grand canyon, than a razor thin line, it was not seen as a point.

Here was the canyon:

(08-09-2011 12:33 PM)dexter Wrote:  I would venture to say that somewhere between 1mg and 1/30,000,000mg there is a line that divides medical concentrations from pheromone concentrations of molecules.

This is over 7 orders of magnetude. This is the difference between a butterfly and a wrecking ball. How is it that we cannot see that there is a line between these 2 situations that puts them in entirely different categories.

(08-09-2011 9:27 PM)Pheroman Wrote:  It would be very easy for a medical practitioner to administer ephedrine and then say "she asked me for sex" in their defense.
Its not legal, not ethical or moral. Thats why these substances are illegal or highly regulated.

I do not understand what you mean by this statement.

I bear no ill will toward anyone, but I think testing ephedrine at mcg levels is not dangerous. As such can we get some tests going?

(08-10-2011 5:59 PM)dexter Wrote:  The feeling that your cognitive abilities aren't affected may be a side effect of the molecules. It would be catch 22, you can't be crazy AND think that you are crazy. Or in otherwords, you can't really know you aren't impaired if you are indeed impaired.

I agree with most of your points except for this one. I don't know if you meant this seriously or not, but many people who would legally and medically be defined as "crazy" or mentally disturbed or impaired are very aware of their mental problems. Schizophrenics may have hallucinations or irrational, violent thoughts and be upset by them and seek help. I feel it generally depends on how self-aware a person is, and self-awareness is a property I feel can be developed through conscious effort. Similarly, an individual using drugs recreationally may be aware of the effect it has on their thoughts and make a conscious effort to curb inappropriate thoughts and behaviors. It is only when a person forgets themselves and "goes with the flow" that the drug can have a profound effect on behavior. Once again, it comes down to the level of self-awareness and mental control they exert. I understand that under certain conditions, an individual really may be overcome by the drug or mental condition and be powerless to stop its effects without outside intervention; I am merely arguing that people can be very crazy, but also very aware of it.

Let me be clear about something: I have nothing against drugs in general, hell I've been taking dextroamphetamine (Dexedrine) for half my life for ADD. What I do have a problem with is establishing a link between pheromones and drugs.

I know for a fact the DEA has taken a close look at this industry before, to see if pheromones were anabolics in disguise. Thankfully they were satisfied that pheromones are not anabolic steroids. I wrote a letter to the DEA drug & chemical evaluation section defending this purpose, when I knew they were looking at the industry.

The FDA however will be much less forgiving if they start to eye this industry. By the comments in this thread, you are doing great damage to our legitimacy, by essentially confirming to them that pheromones may be drugs and may be dangerous - neither of which is true, but you are making it sound that way,

Do you really want to have to get a prescription to buy pheromones from the pharmacy at $300 per 10mL bottle?

Chris, I wouldn't be too concerned. The FDA doesn't have any jurisdiction over the cosmetics industry (by law it's self regulated). I still wouldn't recommend randomly trying things just to see "if it may have pheromonal effects", especially considering the readily available molecules that have been documented to have these effects & come already prepared to use as such. However, if people want to waste their time & money that is their concern. I also want to make it clear that I'm not referring to people testing things out that the body either makes naturally, or uses as a nutrient/food. Yes you can use ephedra fairly safety when it's needed, as in the hundreds of years of anecdotal evidence showing it's efficacy in the treatment of asthma. I really just don't see it having any pheromonal effects. As far as the illicit drug manufacturing, it's completely ridic. & an utter fallacy that the FDA banned ephedra because it can be used to make meth/ecstasy! They banned it because they don't want their pharmaceutical buddies having any competition for their asthma drugs. I will tell you, from personal experience, that if you offer a meth cook ephedra to cook with they will turn it down & explain that they need pseudo-ephedrine because they can't break ephedra down.

Man, what a fucking mess this thread is.

@Dex & oldgage - either test it or don't. All this discussion is useless.

@Pheroman - Stop derailing conversations by comparing every new thing to ecstasy. Seriously, just cut it out, it doesn't make any sense at all.

@Chris - I still don't think we know what the hell pheromones are. The FDA may do something stupid, but I doubt it will be because of a thread on a forum.

I'm inclined to move this thread to the lounge or something.

If you google pheromones, you are likely to find many people questioning pheromones. Some might even relate the pheromone to the sex industry or just say its all a scam. Some might look at the pheromone industry as a shady business. If people hang around talking and even praising drugs, that would certantly not help pheromone's reputation. And of course for a pheromone company, crossing the lines between pheromones, medicine and drugs would be in my eyes not very serious and might in the long term damage the entire business. So to see Alpha Dream taking such a clear stand is very appreciated.

I feel like I should have started two threads: "Ephedrine Sulphate: Ethics," and "Ephedrine Sulphate: Does it possess pheromonal properties?"

Although I will say the posts here have brought up several good points, albeit many of them have been discussed before.

Anyway, I'd love to stay and chat, but I'm here to tell you about the 12.5mcg/spray Ephedrine Sulphate I put together.

Ground up a 25mg pill into fine powder, dissolved in 10mL dollar store cologne, shook and vortexed until I got bored, then let it sit for 3 days to settle (I was on a weekend vacation). Diluted drops from that into a 5mL sprayer.

First test, I sprayed 2 sprays onto my chest and felt nothing. Then after 10 minutes I started to feel a little... drunk I'd call it. Then I realized that maybe I had to be exposed to it for a few minutes before effects started to show. I don't know why, but I've always thought that pheromones reach full effect nearly instantly, but it depends what it is I suppose. I was going to workout after this, so I had also taken 250mg caffeine, some DMAA, and piracetam in my preworkout, so these are of course very serious confounding factors in the test.

Second test was this morning, sprayed two sprays on chest, haven't noticed anything from myself or others. If I try more when I get home I'll let you all know.