(09-28-2015 11:34 AM)Ancillian Wrote:  Paradox - what are your own experiences wearing Est as a solo or part of a mix?

The only product I've done a lot of testing on that contains it is Evolve, which is turning out to be a nice workplace product - so I can attest that Est containing products can be effective in certain circumstances. Unfortunately, I've no idea whether Evolve would be more or less effective without the Est.

I first realized what EST was when I tested EROX four years ago (http://pherotruth.org/Thread-Paradox-s-review-of-Erox). I was so amped to be in on the initial testing of a new product.

I tested the product in various venues and around all types of women but couldn't get any positive sexual responses from any of the women. I tried everything different app points, various dosages. I couldn't figure out what was wrong.

Then I looked at the ingredients. I was pretty sure the ER303 and the Androstadienone were not the problem. Of course I was not 100% sure but I decided to eliminate those, dosages and app points as the problem. That left Estratetraenol. I looked it up and did as much research as possible on it and determined that Estratetraenol was the culprit.

I kind of wrote it off as a mystery because I was not 100% sure that it was the Estratetraenol. But Estratetraenol was suspect number one.

I then tried Wingman Black by Hax. There is no formal review because I tested it and it didn't work for me. I'd read stellar reviews but again I could not get anything sexual going with it. I didn't want to pan it because at the time I was not sure of my pheromone experience. After all Wingman Black was a hit among users and who was I to put down a hit?

I kept trying it and went to the Hax website to see what was in it and up pops Estratetraenol. "Wasn't this stuff in Erox?" I though to myself.

Putting 2 and 2 together I decided then to not waste money on products with Estratetraenol.

Another product that was getting praise was MX297. I then went to test MX297 and once again I got these friend-zone, you're my BFF reactions from women. The ingredients are not listed but eventually the veterans in the Androtics community got to calling it Instant Girlfriend, Instant BFF and Instant friend-zone.

I did try Evolve. I have a 3ml sample of Evolve and everyone praises it. To me it's only good for female conversation. Women love to talk to other women. If you are perceived as another woman then you will get conversation. I was hoping the result would be different but...no. Evolve sends me to the friend-zone.

Some products we know have Estratetraenol as an ingredient. Some we don't.

So until I see differently, Estratetraenol is only good for getting and making female friends who will have no sexual interest in you whatsoever.

I have no problem closing with New Pheromone Additive, A314, Androstenone, M3X, Lure, Praetoria, and NA. AM is good too but it's a tough close.

I can tell the difference between interest and friendly non interest. To tell you the truth I am a PUA. I also moderated a PUA forum with 70,000 members for 10 years and close regularly without any pheromones.
Not revealing this to brag. I'm just saying that I know signs of true interest.

I remember when I first joined everybody loved Wolff and Evolve. Then the report that they contained Est came along and suddenly nobdody wants it. Evolve is considered an Est bomb by some. Steve O said that there is 4mcg of Est in 240ml of. Evolve. Doesn't really sound like a lot to me

(09-28-2015 12:33 PM)Paradox Wrote:  

(09-28-2015 11:34 AM)Ancillian Wrote:  Paradox - what are your own experiences wearing Est as a solo or part of a mix?

The only product I've done a lot of testing on that contains it is Evolve, which is turning out to be a nice workplace product - so I can attest that Est containing products can be effective in certain circumstances. Unfortunately, I've no idea whether Evolve would be more or less effective without the Est.

I first realized what EST was when I tested EROX four years ago (http://pherotruth.org/Thread-Paradox-s-review-of-Erox). I was so amped to be in on the initial testing of a new product.

I tested the product in various venues and around all types of women but couldn't get any positive sexual responses from any of the women. I tried everything different app points, various dosages. I couldn't figure out what was wrong.

Then I looked at the ingredients. I was pretty sure the ER303 and the Androstadienone were not the problem. Of course I was not 100% sure but I decided to eliminate those, dosages and app points as the problem. That left Estratetraenol. I looked it up and did as much research as possible on it and determined that Estratetraenol was the culprit.

I kind of wrote it off as a mystery because I was not 100% sure that it was the Estratetraenol. But Estratetraenol was suspect number one.

I then tried Wingman Black by Hax. There is no formal review because I tested it and it didn't work for me. I'd read stellar reviews but again I could not get anything sexual going with it. I didn't want to pan it because at the time I was not sure of my pheromone experience. After all Wingman Black was a hit among users and who was I to put down a hit?

I kept trying it and went to the Hax website to see what was in it and up pops Estratetraenol. "Wasn't this stuff in Erox?" I though to myself.

Putting 2 and 2 together I decided then to not waste money on products with Estratetraenol.

Another product that was getting praise was MX297. I then went to test MX297 and once again I got these friend-zone, you're my BFF reactions from women. The ingredients are not listed but eventually the veterans in the Androtics community got to calling it Instant Girlfriend, Instant BFF and Instant friend-zone.

I did try Evolve. I have a 3ml sample of Evolve and everyone praises it. To me it's only good for female conversation. Women love to talk to other women. If you are perceived as another woman then you will get conversation. I was hoping the result would be different but...no. Evolve sends me to the friend-zone.

Some products we know have Estratetraenol as an ingredient. Some we don't.

So until I see differently, Estratetraenol is only good for getting and making female friends who will have no sexual interest in you whatsoever.

I have no problem closing with New Pheromone Additive, A314, Androstenone, M3X, Lure, Praetoria, and NA. AM is good too but it's a tough close.

I can tell the difference between interest and friendly non interest. To tell you the truth I am a PUA. I also moderated a PUA forum with 70,000 members for 10 years and close regularly without any pheromones.
Not revealing this to brag. I'm just saying that I know signs of true interest.

Thanks for the response. For me evolve does bring out chattiness in women and men - that seems a pretty consistent response. It also gets me IoIs from older women for sure and respect from men and women alike. I also have a PUA background and consider myself very well versed in gauging attraction signals.

The unknown for me is whether the Est is helping this or hindering it. More testing with other products in the same context may help me narrow this down, but that will take time.

I would, however make the point that I believe there is a very complex set of interactions going on between a 'mone product and the users appearance, personality, behaviour patterns and natural sig. What may destroy one person's game may enhance another's. Some people need a masculine product to beef them up, for others something more feminine could take the edge off the intimidation they naturally generate.

(09-28-2015 1:09 PM)Ancillian Wrote:  Thanks for the response. For me evolve does bring out chattiness in women and men - that seems a pretty consistent response. It also gets me IoIs from older women for sure and respect from men and women alike. I also have a PUA background and consider myself very well versed in gauging attraction signals.

The unknown for me is whether the Est is helping this or hindering it. More testing with other products in the same context may help me narrow this down, but that will take time.

I would, however make the point that I believe there is a very complex set of interactions going on between a 'mone product and the users appearance, personality, behaviour patterns and natural sig. What may destroy one person's game may enhance another's. Some people need a masculine product to beef them up, for others something more feminine could take the edge off the intimidation they naturally generate.

The mindset of the Vendors that use EST is that it "softens" Androstenone. It is used as a softener. Again, I'm not 100% sure but it seems to me like instead of just softening the persons signature it is overwhelming the signature with a feminine one. The abundance of EST is telling the female target that another female is present.

4mcg of Est in 240ml may still be way too much. We don't really know though. It is possible that the amount needed is far, far, far less than that...It's probably doing more harm to than good.

Evolve and other products like it (i.e. MX297) is good for the user who wants to talk to women but have poor "luck" doing so.

All I know is what I've experienced with the products mentioned earlier. The common ingredient is EST and the result is always friend-zone. Honestly, I really think that many of the products on this site could really be big winners without it.

Asking Steve for a custom version of Evolve without the Est may be revealing here.

Disclaimer :I suck at math

If Steve's numbers are correct 2 drops of Evolve would give you 1.6 nanograms of Est in 2 drops. Would that little Est beta-ize a mix?

I think SteveO was referring to the spray formula, this would make it 0,002083 mcg EST per spray.

(09-28-2015 3:47 PM)Blacky Chan Wrote:  Disclaimer :I suck at math

If Steve's numbers are correct 2 drops of Evolve would give you 1.6 nanograms of Est in 2 drops. Would that little Est beta-ize a mix?

We don't really know, but if the normal range for EST on a man is in the Pico or Tico range then 1.6 nanograms would be too much.

(09-28-2015 9:33 AM)HappyGoSkillfully Wrote:  If LIIK v.1 has EST in it, it does NOT make me a woman or anything close. It is a stand out product that flat out makes women think I am sexy. What makes me think that is that they want to have sex with me, then do have sex with me.

I think this is a supremely interesting hobby. I also think that figuring each molecule out, and also figuring what each blend of combined multiple molecules does is fascinating.

I think most agree that most or at least some of these things work very differently for different people. Therefore there is not an exact science with all of this stuff. Most statements that say MixA will absolutely do this, and MixB will do this. Well it is all a work in progress, and very well could work differently for different people. It's why you have to try it out.

I don't even pay that much attention to what all the ingredients are in a blend. There is a curiosity of which pheromone is the base that steers the mix, but I am more interested in if it works and how it works for me.

I guess I don't understand why there is such a strong push to make it clear that EST makes one seem like a woman. Isn't the story that 'mones are only 10% of the equation? Nobody is going to think I am a women because I wear a blend that has a small amount of EST in it. Again, I really don't know what is in LIIK, but I am sexy to women when I am wearing it. And not one do I know of was any part lesbian either.

I do not write this to disagree. I simply write this to report how it works for me. I don't have a pony in this race to be right about.

The problem isn't EST. The problem is too much EST, and few vendors seem to know at which point to stop. HAX is one of these few - there are tons of lay reports on WMB/M512, for one, and AD's L2K is another one of those mixes that makes EST work in a mix.

There's a limit to how much EST is acceptable in a mix. In small doses this is fine. At larger doses, it will overbuffer any mix it's included in.

(09-28-2015 1:05 PM)Blacky Chan Wrote:  I remember when I first joined everybody loved Wolff and Evolve. Then the report that they contained Est came along and suddenly nobdody wants it. Evolve is considered an Est bomb by some. Steve O said that there is 4mcg of Est in 240ml of. Evolve. Doesn't really sound like a lot to me

I've heard that there was 7.5mcg per spray, which would be more consistent with the results (or lack thereof) I've had. Where did you get this?