There seems to be a community wide reluctance to admitting that a pheromone product is a flop.

I have seen the release of several new products by Vendors here and there will always be at least one person who says "Product X works great for me."

Denial is such a big problem here. Vendors and the user community are in a state of perpetual denial when it comes to the viability of certain products.

People are hoping upon hope that Product X will work. So much so that they will invent hits. Not maliciously. It just happens. it's called the Placebo effect.

The idea of the placebo in modern times originated with H. K. Beecher. He evaluated 15 clinical trials concerned with different diseases and found that 35% of 1,082 patients were satisfactorily relieved by a placebo alone ("The Powerful Placebo," 1955). Other studies have since calculated the placebo effect as being even greater than Beecher claimed. For example, studies have shown that placebos are effective in 50 or 60 percent of subjects with certain conditions, e.g., "pain, depression, some heart ailments, gastric ulcers and other stomach complaints."* And, as effective as the new psychotropic drugs seem to be in the treatment of various brain disorders, some researchers maintain that there is not adequate evidence from studies to prove that the new drugs are more effective than placebos. http://skepdic.com/placebo.html

While the placebo effect was originally attributed to medicine, it also applies here in this community.

I think that instead of totally rejecting the non working product (not buying it) the community would rather mix the dud with something else hoping that the end result will be a better product....a working product.

Combining pheromone products have been around as long as pheromone products have been around. I recent read an old lovescent forum thread from 2003 in which a poster tried combining W.A.G.G. with New Pheromone Additive.

I've never read anything good about W.A.G.G. in fact a poster here recently called it a dud. So why is it still for sale? Why is it still hanging around?

The Vendor and user community has a hard time accepting the fact that a pheromone product does not work.

There are at least 5 products on this board that I can name that do not work. Conversely, there are people who will swear that these 5 products work for them.

There seems to be some sort of pride thing going on also. You choose a product. It doesn't work but you defend it because you...like the company that produced it, you like the company owner, you associate with the product so a put down of the product is taken personally, you had "faith" in the product and your faith cannot be moved.

Even the worst product works somewhat but are we too afraid to tell Vendors that their latest release Product X is crap?

Harsh as it may seem to some, this post couldn't be closer to the truth.

I'll mention specifically that most PXS products are hardly better than a placebo - I can think of at least two products from there that do absolutely nothing positive for me. Namely, XiSt and XS119 Pherobomb. I'm convinced most of APi's effects were placebo as well. The hype surrounding some vendors, PXS most of all, only amplify this perceived placebo effect. Brand loyalty prevents most members here from reviewing a product on its own merit.

For the sake of transparency, tell us what these "at least 5 products" are that you claim don't work! I'm curious if they're the same products I'm thinking of right now.

Very good post. I think that 2 separate variables make this one tough. We each have a slightly different personal chemistry so each of us will interact differently to some degree to any given mix. We also have differing personality types and experience. Since mones are a small part of a larger equation very often the wearer is more important then the actual product.

If we exclude the true fakes then we are left with multiple vendors using the same pallet of pheromones. Compare it to painters, lot's of people paint but few are "Rembrandt's". Even among grand masters each of us might respond deeply to one and feel blasé about another. Not all paintings by the same master have equal impact across all devotee's.

The first pheromone mix I bought is PherX, it's real and it works but it's paint by numbers compared to Thundr or Steve's stuff.

I'd say some products will work for most of the people here most of the time and some simply require a particular body chemistry, disposition or purpose...or all three.

Something like Glace, Wolf or Core will have very broad based support and almost universal acceptance. Something like SOB or DP is much more of niche product and something like NA requires a lot of "driving" (IMO) to get the most out of it.

What about broad appeal vs narrow appeal?

Some products many have a pheromone signature that only a small percentage of people will find useful. That doesn't mean a product didn't work. That only means that the vibe change offered by the product is not useful to most people.

Product Doesn't Work - To me, this means that the user's vibe doesn't change at all.

Product Not Useful - To me this means the product worked but the person got no hits because the change in the user's vibe wasn't attractive to women.

I believe there are narrow appeal products that generate hits for a small percentage of guys but are useless to the vast majority of guys. Does this mean the product doesn't work?

(07-30-2015 8:50 AM)DWR Wrote:  Very good post. I think that 2 separate variables make this one tough. We each have a slightly different personal chemistry so each of us will interact differently to some degree to any given mix. We also have differing personality types and experience. Since mones are a small part of a larger equation very often the wearer is more important then the actual product.

If we exclude the true fakes then we are left with multiple vendors using the same pallet of pheromones. Compare it to painters, lot's of people paint but few are "Rembrandt's". Even among grand masters each of us might respond deeply to one and feel blasé about another. Not all paintings by the same master have equal impact across all devotee's.

The first pheromone mix I bought is PherX, it's real and it works but it's paint by numbers compared to Thundr or Steve's stuff.

I'd say some products will work for most of the people here most of the time and some simply require a particular body chemistry, disposition or purpose...or all three.

Something like Glace, Wolf or Core will have very broad based support and almost universal acceptance. Something like SOB or DP is much more of niche product and something like NA requires a lot of "driving" (IMO) to get the most out of it.

It's true that body chemistry can make some mixes useless for certain members whilst working incredibly well for other - Glace and Hypnotica are both examples of this. XiSt has enough of a reputation that it could be included as well, but it does next to nothing for me.

Even mainstream pheromone products like PherX and Pherlure have worked for some of the members here - I have no reason to doubt their results, for the most part.

I think this thread is more about the products that don't really work for anyone, despite what some of the members will claim. XS119 Pherobomb from PXS is one of those products, IME. When you have this many members reporting no results from a product, it's either a very poor mix or it really doesn't contain anything. If you want to see the power of placebo, note that most if not all of Androtics' MX packs contained a placebo mix. It wasn't unusual for certain members to claim amazing results from all three. As Paradox said, the placebo effect is a powerful thing, in pheromones as much as in medicine.

Shit doesn't work for me all the time. Back when I wrote in my journal regularly I always named names. The thing is that there is no accounting for chemistry. And what I have learned at Love Potion is that people have wildly differing dose requirements. There are ladies there that get hits from a swipe of a sample wand of a phero enhanced fragrance which is 1/3 the strength of their regular unscented blends. Meanwhile I use 7-10 sprays of the full strength. I think a lot of people might be wearing too much or too little. When people don't see hits they always go up in dosage, rarely do they go down.
Products that don't work for me:

Glace from Alpha Dreams. I have regular, fast burn, coco. None of it hits.
Super Sexy for Women from Love Potion. I got butterflies the first time I wore it. Nothing since.
Popularity Potion from Love Potion.
Vibe from XS. I get effects but they are horrible.
Bliss from XS. Nothing at all.
L2K from Alpha Dreams. Whatever version I won. When BF wears this I get hit but in a very uncomfortable tensed up way. Can't talk much. Just like Vibe. I shut down.
Levitation from Love Potion. Absolutely jack shit.
MadameX from XS. No self effects or effects on anybody I came into contact with.

Xist is an exceptional product, by far the best thing steve has put out...nothing else is even close IMO (and I do like his stuff). This is the underlying problem with this topic, no question you've got more experience and a deeper understanding of the over all chemistry yet you draw blanket conclusions based on your singular experiences and those 3rd party observations that support your point of view. For example I wore SOB (in combination) yesterday and it was one of the most singe enlightening mone experiences I've had. Xist works for me and not for you. Doesn't make it a bad product or a great one. Very few are universal winners...

I think halo hit the nail on the head, something's just won't work and with others the sweet spot is so far up or down a person never finds it.

On reflection I think my primary objection is to the word placebo which implies fake. I am unaware of any vendor here who advertises a product as containing pheromones that does not.

If we agree that pheromones do in fact have an effect on both our own behavior and those around us then any product who's pheromone content hits "critical mass" is having some type of effect.

I happen to be one of those who can smell pheromones, to a point I m beginning to recognize certain types and blends. Does that make me more susceptible? Possibly explain while most blends here "work" with me (not always in a good way).

I would agree with the statement about effective vs. ineffective but I do agree with the broad based statement that mones are only 10 or 15% of the equation.

(07-30-2015 10:47 AM)DWR Wrote:  Xist is an exceptional product, by far the best thing steve has put out...nothing else is even close IMO (and I do like his stuff). This is the underlying problem with this topic, no question you've got more experience and a deeper understanding of the over all chemistry yet you draw blanket conclusions based on your singular experiences and those 3rd party observations that support your point of view. For example I wore SOB (in combination) yesterday and it was one of the most singe enlightening mone experiences I've had. Xist works for me and not for you. Doesn't make it a bad product or a great one. Very few are universal winners...

I assume this was directed at me.

I never claimed XiSt was a bad product - only that it does nothing for me. XiSt, ultimately, is something I wouldn't consider a flop, just not a good product in my experience. Loveboat has been the only product to impress me from PXS, though that's a fairly simple mix in itself.

Blanket conclusions? It's not as though I can give you anything more than my own point of view. I don't claim to have some sort of universal body chemistry - there are members whose opinions I trust that had good experiences with XiSt. I can't say the same about S.O.B. - while I can believe you had a good experience with S.O.B., I've still found nothing that separates it from your typical Androstenone-based mix, nothing that makes it special. Who's to say you wouldn't have had even more impressive results from Primitive or DP? When you've tried a few more sexuals, that'll put your views on S.O.B. into perspective. If it holds up then, then good on you, you've found a mix that works for you.

I trust members with experience because they understand the field. PXS has proven itself incapable of besting or even keeping up with the competition, time and again. I think they have it in them to surpass LAL, but they don't appear to be trying too hard. You're not going to convince me otherwise, and I certainly won't try to convince you - I'll let PXS prove to me that they're a top-notch vendor. They're improving, slowly. Right now, I consider them the weakest vendor out there bar True Pheromones.

There are no universal winners - in the end, it's about finding what's best for us, even if your choice goes against the vast majority of the pheromone community.

(07-30-2015 11:00 AM)DWR Wrote:  On reflection I think my primary objection is to the word placebo which implies fake. I am unaware of any vendor here who advertises a product as containing pheromones that does not.

I can't speak for Paradox, but in my case, that was not the intended implication. I'd be very surprised if any blend from a major vendor contained no pheromones (with the exception of Androtics, who have explicitly stated their use of placebo mixes). In the case of PBomb however, I don't think the results would hold up in a double-blind test - it doesn't do anything for me, positive or negative, so it may as well be placebo.