(11-09-2015 11:55 AM)Ekscentra Wrote:  More often than not, Prozac and other SSRIs have been known to leave users much worse off than they once were. There are much safer ways of treating OCD - Memamtine and other NMDA antagonists as well as Psilocybin and other 5HT-2A agonists. But since this is veering somewhat off-topic, I'll leave it at that.

I've already explained that targeting serotonin is pointless. Unless you take care of the excess cortisol, you're almost certain to have some degree. You're covering up the symptoms rather than attacking the root cause. For someone like myself, who is especially sensitive to Androstadienone , no amount of cover-ups will suffice. 7-Keto DHEA is likely the best thing we have right now, given its ability to block cortisol.

Ekscentra

Do you find 7 keto dhea prevents clinical depression too or only depression brought on through Androstadienone ?

(11-09-2015 1:06 PM)dsouza Wrote:  Ekscentra

Do you find 7 keto dhea prevents clinical depression too or only depression brought on through Androstadienone ?

Just Androstadienone . Though I seem to recall 7-Keto being used for clinical depression at some point, I'm sure there are much better options than this.

(11-09-2015 1:04 PM)Ekscentra Wrote:  My personal experience is all the evidence I need to convince myself - aside from anecdotal evidence, it's doubtful you'll find anything at this time. I know what a cortisol response feels like, both the physical sensation and my mind and the rest of my body and the mental state it puts me in. I've experienced this through the use of numerous substances, and it all points back to cortisol. The depression caused by excess cortisol is especially heavy and intense.

If that's all you're relying on, you definitely shouldn't be generalizing beyond yourself - and perhaps you can't even generalize to yourself.

I'm not an expert in this, certainly not any more, but it is something I've studied in the past - and I know enough to know that the relationship between depression and cortisol in the published literature gets rather complex and varies with factors like age to name one, but in some cases suicidal behaviour is associated with low cortisol http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18672335

There is, however, nothing that I'm aware of to suggest that cortisol is the root cause of depression in general - even though certain somewhat ambiguous correlations exist. It's also worth remembering cortisol is usually produced in response to stress and it's functions are to calm the body down. You may be noting a state in your body that correlates to cortisol release, but is not caused by it.

(11-09-2015 2:01 PM)Ancillian Wrote:  If that's all you're relying on, you definitely shouldn't be generalizing beyond yourself - and perhaps you can't even generalize to yourself.

I'm not an expert in this, certainly not any more, but it is something I've studied in the past - and I know enough to know that the relationship between depression and cortisol in the published literature gets rather complex and varies with factors like age to name one, but in some cases suicidal behaviour is associated with low cortisol http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18672335

There is, however, nothing that I'm aware of to suggest that cortisol is the root cause of depression in general - even though certain somewhat ambiguous correlations exist. It's also worth remembering cortisol is usually produced in response to stress and it's functions are to calm the body down. You may be noting a state in your body that correlates to cortisol release, but is not caused by it.

All good points. Now keep in mind that Androstadienone depression is similarly complex. This is a gross generalizations, but if we can get a wide variety of members who experience Androstadienone depression to use 7-Keto DHEA in an attempt to eliminate that depression, this would go a long way in substantiating my hypothesis. At any rate, it's the best we have to go on. There are no known mechanisms relating to Androstadienone known to cause depression aside from cortisol. If I'm wrong, feel free to point one out to me.

I find coffee can help with the energy drain and brain fog but not depression. Studies show caffeine increases both cortisol and testosterone. http://examine.com/supplements/caffeine/

In the beginning i thought the issue was testosterone/androgen related so tried herbs like Tongkat Ali, Pine Pollen, Ashwaganda, Maca, Icariin 60%.. Even combining with an Aromatase inhibitor (Grape Seed Extract). Then tried tonic and ayurvedic herbs known to lower cortisol, good stuff but not much help here. These herbs might lower cortisol through different pathways/methods that don't get to the root of negative Androstadienone effects(?).

7-Keto maybe is different as its an 11HSB inhibitor. It blocks cortisone, thereby the conversion from cortisone to cortisol. Like others, i've found it helps quite a lot eliminating depression (and anxiety) from Androstadienone , have not used more than 200 mg doses.

(11-09-2015 2:36 PM)eibmoz Wrote:  7-Keto maybe is different as its an 11HSB inhibitor. It blocks cortisone, thereby the conversion from cortisone to cortisol. Like others, i've found it helps quite a lot eliminating depression (and anxiety) from Androstadienone , have not used more than 200 mg doses.

It's good to hear another positive report. It seems like 200 mg of 7-keto DHEA is enough and maybe even more than enough.

See the discussion here for why it might not be a good idea to take 7-keto dhea. Yeah, there is the usual bodybuilding.com bullshit, but the studies quoted and the following discussion are worth considering:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=697053

tl;dr version:

1) studies show only a very small (approx. 5-7%) reduction in cortisol,
2) it is suppressive (test decreased by approx. 11%) and possibly for up to 100 days after discontinuation.

A.

(11-09-2015 4:08 PM)Alphonse Wrote:  See the discussion here for why it might not be a good idea to take 7-keto dhea. Yeah, there is the usual bodybuilding.com bullshit, but the studies quoted and the following discussion are worth considering:

http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=697053

tl;dr version:

1) studies show only a very small (approx. 5-7%) reduction in cortisol,
2) it is suppressive (test decreased by approx. 11%) and possibly for up to 100 days after discontinuation.

A.

I wasn't aware of these studies. This is hood reason to avoid 7-Keto for purposes other than Androstadienone depression. As for Androstadienone depression, perhaps a mild to moderately effective test booster with an aromatase inhibitor would make this more workable.

Now, on cortisol, I wonder if it's more effective in users when 11B-HSD enyzymes are highly active? The cortisol-related statistics could drastically change in those that have high cortisol levels. All of the studies listed in that thread appear to involve healthy volunteers.

(11-09-2015 2:12 PM)Ekscentra Wrote:  All good points. Now keep in mind that Androstadienone depression is similarly complex. This is a gross generalizations, but if we can get a wide variety of members who experience Androstadienone depression to use 7-Keto DHEA in an attempt to eliminate that depression, this would go a long way in substantiating my hypothesis. At any rate, it's the best we have to go on. There are no known mechanisms relating to Androstadienone known to cause depression aside from cortisol. If I'm wrong, feel free to point one out to me.

Well I agree that the few independent reports of DHEA and 7-Keto supplementation preventing A-1 related depression are extremely interesting. Also interesting that people report less depression when wearing AM or Cohesion which both contain DHEA – especially when it's been demonstrated that DHEA can be absorbed through the skin. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11252535

However, unclear to me whether that suggests cortisol is the mechanism. The mechanism might not be A-1 causing high cortisol, it might simply be that A-1 depletes DHEA and therefore supplementation is protective. After all, DHEA has been shown in small RCTs to help some people (but not everyone) with major depression. http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/abs/....156.4.646

Alternatively, A-1 may makes people depressed through some other mechanism (like direct action on some part of the brain like the amygdala), and DHEA just cheers people up in general (so even if A-1 hasn't depleted DHEA, the extra DHEA cancels out the negative elsewhere in the system).

One reason to doubt the Androstadienone → Cortisol → depression theory is that Androstadienone causes cortisol rises in women... and the experience of most users is the Androstadienone increases female mood rather than decreases it.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17287500

I wasn't talking about DHEA. This makes for a very different point of discussion. While it's more than capable of raising one's mood, I've found it fairly weak for blunting Androstadienone depression.

As for women, I suspect cortisol exhibits a polar response depending on one's sexual preferences. A heterosexual female or homosexual male will exhibit a positive response while a heterosexual male or a homosexual female would exhibit a negative response. I haven't actually seen any evidence for homosexual females exhibiting a negative response, so take that with a grain of salt. The point is, I think that study you posted may help in proving my point, once others can test this for themselves.