Here's another very interesting study on how androstadienone effects men:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3661594/

See this bit on how Androstadienone affects testosterone and cortisol in men. It shows that testosterone levels are not the issue. It suggests that someone with high levels of baseline cortisol who is exposed to Androstadienone will experience a greater decrease of testosterone when compared to the control group of people with baseline cortisol:

Between-group differences in testosterone and cortisol change

Unlike predicted, the olfactory stimulus, did not have a main effect on absolute or relative change scores for neither cortisol [absolute change in cortisol M −.061, SD .078, F(1,37) = 1.710, p = 0.13; relative change in cortisol M −.209, SD = .409, F(1,37) = .466, p>.05] nor testosterone [absolute change in testosterone M −15.85, SD 31.21, F(1,37) = .846, p = .35; relative change in testosterone M −.120, SD 1.61, F(1,37) = 1.54, p>.05].

Surprisingly, the amount of baseline cortisol and olfactory stimulus had an interaction effect on both, the absolute change in testosterone [absolute change in testosterone, F(3,34) = 5.53, p<.05, Partial Eta2 .140; relative change in testosterone, F(3,34) = 3.96, p = .055, Partial Eta2 .104]. In the control group, high levels of baseline cortisol resulted in an increase –or in most cases, a smaller decrease- in testosterone levels, while in the androstadienone receiving group, a high baseline level of cortisol resulted in a slightly larger decrease in testosterone levels.

A.

Interesting. However, the use of testosterone boosters has done next to nothing for me to reduce the negative side-effects of Androstadienone , and it appears they only measured salivary testosterone and cortisol. A single study only counts for so much. I stand by my belief that cortisol is the culprit, though I understand the need for objective confirmation.

The other issue is that no dose was mentioned, and exposure time was exceptionally short. Since this contradicts everything we've come to know about Androstadienone 's effect on men, I imagine what we're seeing here is a greatly varying dose-dependent response. Perhaps doses in the nanogram range or lower will have a different effect compared to the doses many of us are used to using in our testing. It's likely that we're greatly overdosing on Androstadienone , so I'd like to see someone (especially those who are Androstadienone -sensitive) test Androstadienone at doses in the low-nanogram range or lower and report how, if at all, the responses change, especially in the user and in other men.

Back to 7-Keto DHEA, take a look at Post #134 in that thread you link. The facts on 7-Keto are still unclear. I'm all for treading carefully, but at the same time let's not assume danger based on a single study. None of us will know for certain how well 7-Keto works or how dangerous it might be without personal experience or some real consensus on the objective side. Right now, a decent test booster with an aromatase inhibitor seems a reasonable precaution to me.

Ekscentra,

I get Androstadienone depression on baseline, low and supraphysiological level of test so agree it is more complicated than raising test to reduce Androstadienone depression.

The most interesting part of the study is that the observable physiological changes only happened in people with high baseline cortisol. So it's quite possible that reducing baseline cortisol levels may solve the Androstadienone problem. High cortisol usually results in low serotonin, so it's quite possible that raising serotonin might reduce Androstadienone depression also (no, I'm not suggesting going on SSRIs solely so you can use Androstadienone before anyone asks).

A.

(11-09-2015 5:26 PM)Ekscentra Wrote:  I wasn't talking about DHEA. This makes for a very different point of discussion. While it's more than capable of raising one's mood, I've found it fairly weak for blunting Androstadienone depression.

As for women, I suspect cortisol exhibits a polar response depending on one's sexual preferences. A heterosexual female or homosexual male will exhibit a positive response while a heterosexual male or a homosexual female would exhibit a negative response. I haven't actually seen any evidence for homosexual females exhibiting a negative response, so take that with a grain of salt. The point is, I think that study you posted may help in proving my point, once others can test this for themselves.

Taking this in reverse order... how? You were arguing that cortisol is the root cause of depression and that the causal mechanism in Androstadienone depression is... Androstadienone -> Cortisol -> Depression. In study I posted regarding Androstadienone and women, the subjects were hetrosexual - in that study Androstadienone increased cortisol and improved mood at the same time - which suggests cortisol is not necessarily the bogey man here.

In addition to the studies I've already posted, intravenously supplied cortisol has actually been shown to eliminate depression. (Note hydrocortisone is the commercial name for cortisol).
http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/abs/...157.8.1334

The connection between cortisol and stress tends not to be:
Cortisol -> Stress (implying the cortisol is causing the stress)
It's usually:
Stress -> Cortisol (where the cortisol is produced in response to stress, and sometimes other stimuli, and is actually the thing that calms down the stress response)

On the first point you made, you are correct you were talking about 7-Keto DHEA rather than DHEA, I was reading sloppily.

However, users in other threads have noted the effect of DHEA in reducing/eliminating Androstadienone depression (e.g. http://pherotruth.org/Thread-Cure-for-an...#pid139881 and http://pherotruth.org/Thread-countering-Androstadienone -androsteadienone-depression?pid=72592#pid72592 and http://pherotruth.org/Thread-Androstadie...#pid84350) and 7-Keto DHEA is a metabolite of DHEA.

I suggested a plausible alternative explanation for Androstadienone depression involving DHEA, but the explanation could equally apply to 7-Keto.

Anyway, after I bit of digging, I'd actually suggest something that makes far more sense to me: Androstadienone activates the amygdala in hetrosexual men but not in hetrosexual women http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/art...7301003907 The amygdala does a few things, but, relevant to our purposes here, it's also involved in the fear response. To me it makes more sense that the causal pathway is: Androstadienone -> amygdala activation -> stress -> cortisol

DHEA is perhaps protective because it reduces amygdala activation: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23552182 which explains why DHEA may be protective. If it did this via it's 7-keto metabolite, then we've got a very neat theory explaining the results.

I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm suggesting that the changes are due to an increase in the behavioral response to cortisol. In other words, a woman may respond well in general to a heightening of cortisol. It'd be interesting to discover what sort of hormonal changes take place with stress in a heterosexual female. Will an increase in cortisol still result?

I agree with your hypothesis on the amygdala. You may be on to something here.

(11-09-2015 8:19 PM)Ekscentra Wrote:  It'd be interesting to discover what sort of hormonal changes take place with stress in a heterosexual female. Will an increase in cortisol still result?

Cortisol is produced in reaction to stress in both sexes. Men produce more than women, but it goes up in both: e.g.
http://journals.lww.com/psychosomaticmed...ses.4.aspx I've seen that same finding in a few studies.

Also, I should note, I don't think stress is the only factor that affects cortisol levels.

LETHARGY
------------

Let's revisit this phenomenon.

I don't get depression much from Am or l2k v1 (provided I use within reason) even without 7 keto dhea.

However, lethargy from l2k v1 sometimes hits not 1 but 2 days later! It's freaky.. The day after I could be like totally sane and energetic and healthy and then 2 days later BANG exhaustion, can't get out of bed all day, no motivation. This is not the same as sadness.


The question is, is this also related to Androstadienone intolerance or depression in particular? Will taking 7 keto dhea prevent this from happening? If it is not related to Androstadienone depression what is it related to?

Lethargy could indicate a lack of actie cortisol, which is a phyiscial and psychological driver.

I agrre that the high cortisol = disstress equation is questionable. Coffeine and some acids in Coffe increase stress, yet Coffe is highly destressing for most habitual drinkers.
Also, it is established that Androstadienone increases cortisol in women while being calming and soothing.

The 7-keto resolves the lethargy for me. Like you, the sadness is minimal, but the apathy could be perceived as "depression-like." I always considered the lethargy as the main component of androsradienone depression, but maybe other people report more sadness.

For example, Paradox reported that A-1 makes him want to give up and go home on PUA, implicating the lethargy and libido-lowering symptoms.

Other examples abound.

(11-09-2015 1:04 PM)Ekscentra Wrote:  My personal experience is all the evidence I need to convince myself - aside from anecdotal evidence, it's doubtful you'll find anything at this time. I know what a cortisol response feels like, both the physical sensation and my mind and the rest of my body and the mental state it puts me in. I've experienced this through the use of numerous substances, and it all points back to cortisol. The depression caused by excess cortisol is especially heavy and intense.

It seems like all we have to go by in understanding and accepting your theory is this "cortisol response." Can you tell us more about this? I'm not sure what that is, exactly. What substances were you taking that caused it? What symptoms did you have exactly that are so similar to A-1 depression? Was it also stressful or was it purely an increase in cortisol? Have you ever been tested as having high baseline cortisol?

Maybe this is personal as it veers into personal medical history, or maybe it's just tedious for you, but anything you can tell me about cortisol metabolism would interest me a lot.