I noted that there was an interesting discussion brewing off in another part of the forum about androstenone and whether it has effects or not. I thought since the discussion wasn't exactly germain to the products review section that it might be a good idea to start another thread in a more generic section. I've copied an excellent post from JVKohl from that thread to this one to start things off.

So guys and girls, what do you really think of androstenone? Take a hard look at your own use and tell us what you think about this staple of so many mixes that has virtually nothing outside of the anecdotal evidence to back it's use as a pheromone.

My personal experience is that I've never really gotten good results from it outside of very sexualized situations or very "man" oriented environments. I think a little bit can really magnify the "good hard crazy dirty sex" fantasy when your partner is desirous of that experience. I think it also has benefited me in my fishing store because I think it gives the feeling of "real guy sweaty outdoors stuff" without being too offensive like "real sweaty outdoors guy who's standing next to you in the store" would be. Pheromone? I got no idea even what that really means in a provable context. I do think it has subconscious effects on many folks though.

Anyhow it's a great discussion that needs to be had among a group of people who have used it. The post from JV follows.(EDIT: This is by no means an attempt to refute or argue a point of science. I have nothing but respect for JVKohl and the research he does. He's given me a lot of food for thought over the time I've been reading his posts. This post just got me to thinking about the fact that we pheromone users seem to have -none so ingrained in our canon of pheromones and we really should give more thought to it.)

JVKohl Wrote:No researcher I know has ever attempted to prove a negative (e.g., "prove it has no effect.") And no marketer I know has attempted to prove that androstenone has a positive effect. Given the research that showed androstenone was aversive to women and reports that it smells urinous, even the anecdotal information on its effectiveness is suspect. That's all the more reason for marketers to quit telling us it works, and design a study to show it works.

For example, some colleagues (including Martha McClintock) adapted our study design and attempted to show that androstadienone affected behavior. "Effects of androstadienone and menstrual cycle phase on flirting behavior in random couples" No affect on behavior was found, and this is a highly touted "human pheromone." Nevertheless, as with androstenone, I've never looked at it because there's no biologically based evidence to suggest it has any effect on hormones that would lead to its behavioral affect.

Perhaps that's the biggest difference between me, as a researcher with commercial interests, and others who have only commercial interests or who only have research interests. Whatever I use in my product line is supported by an abundance of data from research that fits data from studies of other animals (mostly mammals). If my products work, it's because there is evidence to suggest they should affect behavior.

Of course, I'm not using androstadienone, either. And Tisha is right, I've been posting on androstenone and androstadienone for as long as they've been mentioned on any of these forums. My insistence on a scientific approach is the reason I was banned from the Love-Scent forum.

But, each time I'm mentioned in any respected journalist's paper, and each time my work is cited by other researchers, we're all closer to learning more about how pheromones work and which pheromones work. You'll be hearing more about this in the next few months, I think, because I have three conference presentations scheduled: one at the annual gathering of Mensa, and two at the annual meeting of the International Society for Human Ethology.

Meanwhile, it may be pertinent to note recent research suggesting that, "...within persons favoring a male partner, a higher sensitivity to androstenone is related to some kind of approach behavior towards the source of the odor." Lübke, K., S. Schablitzky, et al. (2009). "Male Sexual Orientation Affects Sensitivity to Androstenone." Chemosensory Perception 2(3): 154-160.

Does this mean that androstenone attracts gay men (besides being aversive to women)? Or is this merely my subtle marketing ploy? Be careful out there! Many people aren't concerned with the research that could save them from some embarrassing situations, or merely make them better informed consumers.

James V. Kohl
http://www.pheromones.com

I've burned through an entire bottle of AD's Ammunition (Game-scented) with very few results. The few that I've had are typical of high androstenone doses: it attracts older women and they respond with some very sexual IOIs. My reports on it can be found here and here.

I do know it works. But having said that, it's the most disappointing out of the four AD pheromone mixes that I've used and is the only one that has a large amount of androstenone. The scientist in me says you can't draw firm conclusions from that but make of it what you will.

Musk

Exactly! The way that I took what Diane wrote was that it does have an effect it is just that it might not always have a beneficial effect. That is why she's chosen not to use androstenone in her products. All I know is that they seem to attract just fine without androstenone (at least for me). :shy:

I'd say androstenone clearly has an effect - and Diane didn't actually say otherwise. But in my experience androstenone is a double-edged sword. I've had it hit really hard a few times, but I've seen it cause irritation and flight or at least avoidance reactions with a very small dose much more often. I'm not sure about the ratio Diane has mentioned (70% of women would find androstenone irritating), but there's clearly a part of the female population that does, as I've seen several times. I've always had this theory that androstenone is only kinda 'attractive' - or maybe better 'sexually stimulating' - for a small percentage of women, but this small part reacts in a very pronounced way (i.e. the 'heavy hits' that tend to come up every now and then). But for the vast majority it does nothing or behaves more like a repellent. At least that's what my experience hints to.

Some years back I've been to a club alone wearing two drops of Alter Ego. I've had one of my best pheromone hits that evening - and one of my worst as well. The bad one was a girl I've mostly known online from some discussions on ICQ, but I've also met her at one festival before. Really cute one. I was happy to see a known face in the club, so I went for some little chit chat with her. No way! I sat beside her and started talking in a happy 'hey, long time no see. what's up?' matter - but I didn't get a SINGLE word out of her. Nothing. She actually seemed to be afraid of me, or at least found my being there very very displeasing. I got the message and left her alone then. This girl had a pretty bad youth with her father beating her. Adding this to what PapaWolf mentioned in another thread about his girlfriends experience with her former husband... It seems that androstenone might actually represent more than the 'bad boy' pheromone, maybe it's more of an 'asshole' pheromone? At least it might be a pheromone that is more about aggression than about sex. But - of course - that's only what I've got out of my experience.

There's also this girl in her early 20-s (back then) that I've been working with for a couple of years. That was back when I started using pheromones. I've worn Scent of Eros for quite some time around her (she was always sitting at the opposite desk, like a good meter (errr... about 4 feet for you american guys ) away. Scent of Eros made her really comfortable around me - we were on the way of becoming good friends. Then one day I started to use androstenone products around her - at a very low dose actually, like 1 or 2 dabs of New Pheromone Additive, probably not more than 3 to 5 mcg. She became instantly irritated about me, kept much distance (she's actually been cuddly with me in the office before with Scent of Eros ) and rarely wanted to share a word with me. I've stopped wearing this stuff after a few days and went back to Scent of Eros alone. Later when I found out about Androtics I've worn some Ammo (1 or 2 sprays only) around her every now and then - her reaction was not as bad as with New Pheromone Additive, but she clearly felt less comfortable with me. I'm not on very good terms with her anymore, as she's started avoiding me - and I'm very sure my androstenone usage around her has a lot to do with this. If you are feeling uncomfortable around a certain person you'll start to avoid that person, right? Sadly, I wasn't experienced enough back then to get the clear signs.

So in the end I'm very happy about Diane's decision to leave out androstenone from her mixes completely. So far what I've tried from her stuff works great, and might work better than all this androstenone stuff I've been using for quite some time now. To be honest it's been a long time since I've had anything like a good hit with -none products...

I will weigh in on this one.

Androstenone does do something but I never felt it caused attraction. It causes aggression and arousal in my experience. Arousal is a form of aggression. I dont use it unless that is the reaction I am going for. I have always told the men especially newbies over at AD not to lean so heavily on Androstenone. They can reach there goals more effectively by using only tiny amounts of the Androstenone products with a lot more social, bonding products. Causing comfort and connection will naturally lead to arousal but causing arousal will not lead to comfort or connection. With out that comfort you get no where really.

Should we rule out Androstenone totally because it can have negative effects though ? No, every single pheromone molecule sold can have negative effects. You just need to know how to properly use them to avoid that. I think to many people have the more is better mentality and thats part of the problem. More is not better with any pheromone.

As for Diane not using it in her mixes. Being a female I am glad because I dont use Androstenone often. I think she has a certain vision for her store and what she wants to promote and not promote. She has to sell what she loves and what she believes in that is what makes her mixes so well liked and what will make her successful. When you try to work with something you dont like or have good feelings about it shows in other aspects of your product. I may not agree with her opinion on Androstenone but I certainly respect she is following her vision.

James is right, that as science advances in this area we will find out more and more. I think consumers should take both the acendotal and scientific evidence into consideration and come to there own conclusion. I agree that markerters can be bias and that go's for any person or company who sells a pheromone product. Once you cross that line into selling the ego becomes involved. While I love science its only as pure as the intention of the scientist. Is your intention to discover or is it to sell. My opinion is James intends to discover.

Tisha

I think that age plays a huge role in the effectiveness of Androstenone.

As we age and our natural Testosterone and Androstenone levels decrease, Androstenone can play a role in restoring an auro of being healthy, youthful and vibrant.

And, the younger guys that have less success and more problems with Androstenone may very well be because their still naturally producing high levels of Androstenone, and it's much easier for them to OD and come across as to agressive.

My personal experiences are that I get a lot more IOI's when I'm wearing Androstenone, and mosty of those IOI's come from much younger women. And, I know that a lot of the younger guys report getting IOI's from older women when they wear Androstenone.

Which leads me to believe, at least on some level, that the IOI's I get from younger women are due to them possibly viewing me as more stable and experienced than the younger guys they're used to being around, but still vibrant and attractive?

And, the IOI's that the younger guys get from older women are possibly due to the women looking for a fling or a wild experience that they feel they can only get from a young stud?

The question marks are there becuase these are just my theories, and are likely to change or be expounded upon, but something I thought I'd share.

Tezza and Snoopy, What are YOUR experiences with -none? I brought this thread up here to take it out of the vendor driven context. Frankly I don't give a fat rat's ass about what any vendor says about a product. I'm interested in user experience. Vendor posts and vendor opinions belong in the vendor threads. I appreciate the fact that you have had great experiences with certain vendor's products and enjoy your reviews of those products (from both Paridise 7 and Liquid Alchemy). Please continue posting them!

I wanna know what androstenone does or doesn't do in YOUR experience!

My experiences with -none seems to be similar to most of the posts already on here. Sometimes I get great hits with it, other times I get ghosted. MX292 has worked wonders for me, and if AD's claims that it is high in -none are true, that would be one example of -none working well for me. I find that AMMO does not get me very good hits, although that could be the scent package.

The thing with my experiences though, is that I haven't tried straight -none. In addition, I'm not really in a controlled environment. There are just too many factors and confounds to really give this any scientific basis.

I have to agree with alot of what Mark said.

Honestly, the whole scientific aspect of the phero world confuses me more than helps me. I have tried to understand it, but I usually end up closing it down because it makes no sense to me. What I do understand is what I see when it is applied to my skin.

The thought that -none does not cause sexaul attraction is NUTS to me. However, I have seen it cause irritation and intmidation just as much.

When wearing higher amounts of -none (15mcgs +), I have seen younger woman who are looking for the "badboy" respond well, as well as Cougars stick to me like white in rice. I also have been sitting right next to someone in their mid 20's and hear them say "OMG, i just got so fucking irritated." "Could you get the fuck away from me right now." I have seen co-workers straight up be intimidated by me. Those are just examples of higher -none encounters. Others: I have been jumped in my car and been riden like I was Seabiscuit by someone who admitted not being that attracted to me. Then she utters " I dont know what just happened to me, or what came over me, I just NEEDED to fuck you." There is a woman that I work with that claims she can smell the testosterone levels in men. She claims she can tell who can be a sexual mate for her by the level of the scent. I asked her what she sensed of me and she told me that mine is usually high, but I am weird because it seems to be different everytime she encounters me.

I have seen woman drag their fingers over sensitive areas, I have been boobed, I have seen my ex actually thrust her pelvic area toward my hand without knowing that she is was doing it. I have seen COUNTLESS hair flips, body leaning, kino initiated, and overall sexaul behavior that i never saw prior to wearing phero's, or when just wearing "socials".

Please remember that these results are were not from wearing str8 -none. There were buffers worn.

As far as Dianne and her mixes are concerned, I applaude her effort to make an attraction product without -none. There are alot of women out there who are VERY sensitive to it. I am sure there is a large client base that is looking for just that type mix. I have used Pursuit, it does help in attraction. It does deliver results. But I have yet to see any type of sexual hits from it. Remember, this was only one of her products, and i have only tested a 5ml of it.

I have an open mind, but I love my -none.

(05-23-2010 12:19 PM)renny Wrote:  Tezza and Snoopy, What are YOUR experiences with -none? I brought this thread up here to take it out of the vendor driven context. Frankly I don't give a fat rat's ass about what any vendor says about a product. I'm interested in user experience. Vendor posts and vendor opinions belong in the vendor threads. I appreciate the fact that you have had great experiences with certain vendor's products and enjoy your reviews of those products (from both Paridise 7 and Liquid Alchemy). Please continue posting them!

I wanna know what androstenone does or doesn't do in YOUR experience!

Depending on the woman and depending on the amounts I have seen androstenone help and hinder when it comes to attraction. I LOVE Aqua Vitae and it is built around androstenone. I have also seen where it has caused me to ghost. I can be wearing the same amount each time but I do find that I have to be more careful with mixes that contain high amounts of androstenone.

I love FTL because I get a lot of interest, a lot of bonding and I've worn A LOT and other than getting a bit spacey I don't seem to have any OD concerns. FTL isn't really meant to be a bar seduction mix. It is meant more for pair bonding (that leads to great sex). If you are looking to attract that special woman, or deepen the bonds with a special woman, it works great without androstenone. FTL is more of a one one one mix for me.

Having said all that, I did just buy a bottle of Nude Alpha because that mix seems pretty balanced for me where the androstenone gives me the alpha signature but is tempered by the social Pheromones. So I loves me some ~none but I can live without it.