Check out this set of slides/charts/presentation on Attachment Theory in a different light.
http://www.santecenter.com/files/Flores_...Part_1.pdf

It shows some of the relationships between physiology/mood/ attachment.
It also shows some molecules in there like:
Cortisol (cortisol levels rise with Androstadienone 'mones exposure)
this paper says the brain will see Cortisol as Ethanol, but your body doesn't make enough Cortisol to get you drunk.
Oxytocin (human trust pheromone)

Dopamine - not a pheromone, but in play with the attachment scenario.
THE DOPAMINE RUSH: With dopamine there is a highly charged motivating arousal that feels exciting & stimulating, which drives behavior compulsively, but this is in itself, is not necessarily pleasurable.

Insecure Attachment types have abnormal reactivity in the H-P-A axis (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Adrenal) and increased sensitivity to stress. (page 16 of 46)

Perhaps Androstadienone and tac for relaxing and possible DHEA for a hormone balancing. I was thinking about ordering DHEA or DHEAS. What sort of experience have you had with it?

(02-22-2015 8:25 PM)MeltingAsh Wrote:  Perhaps Androstadienone and tac for relaxing and possible DHEA for a hormone balancing. I was thinking about ordering DHEA or DHEAS. What sort of experience have you had with it?

I got some sxd-9 (aka smurf goo since it's blue gel) and tried 2 & 3 pumps. I didn't find anything coming from my wife [ESTJ & Avoidant-Attachment Types] it felt like it was getting worse, the cold shoulder, the blah & non-passion all seemed to keep steam rolling over me.

To the contrary, we went to a therapy session (marriage counselling) and I wore 3x Bad Wolf, 20mcg P74, Oxytocin (lots) and things got lots better. I think the therapy had something to do with it, but it was a vast improvement that evening and the next day.

here is a good link to replace the bad link to the site above

Check out this set of slides/charts/presentation on Attachment Theory in a different light.
http://www.santecenter.com/files/Flores_...Part_1.pdf

ok the link is good but something gets messed up when you click it.
the letters "%E2%80%8B" appear in the web address.

the link should be "http://www.santecenter.com" then "/files/Flores_Addiction_as_an_Attachment_Disord​er-Part_1.pdf"

---------
this attachment theory stuff is really awesome. I've got so much out of it for myself just seeing the dumb things I do in the frame of "Protest Behavior". It explains so much.

And it really is the Mom's who have such a big part to play in preventing or producing these Attachment Patterns in people.

COVERT NARCISSIST

I am sooooooo bummed.
This whole Attachment theory thing really led to an eye opening experience.

UNTIL...

I was shown a website by my wife that was very related to Attachment theory. It was called :
6 Signs Your Partner is Love Avoidant
http://www.loveaddictionhelp.com/signs_y...e_avoidant and read some stuff, it was funny as my wife was saying, in effect "see. you are a love addict, you just want too much love/sex/attention".

She didn't read the website, I did. It was all attachment theory stuff. The Love-Addict was kindof a extreme case of Anxious Attachment, and the Love-Avoidant was a case of Avoidant Attachment. Just repackaged in another website.

Except...
on the page referenced above there was a #5.

Quote:5. Is a Narcissist or Displays Narcissistic Traits

Love Avoidants are prone to narcissism. Not all are full-blown narcissists; nevertheless, a majority will almost certainly present some traits of narcissism. Narcissism is an undeniable indicator that a person is not intimately engaged in a relationship.

A Narcissist may show two faces -- the one they wear in public, and the one they wear in close interpersonal relationships; which is not a good one. On the outside in public, they can present a nice, pleasant exterior. People who are not close to them may view them as a fun, confident, charming, outgoing, social person.

Only those close to the narcissist have any idea there is more to them than this one fictitious face. Behind their façade of tough-skin, strength, and charisma is a very fragile, wounded person who is thinks the world is all about him/her and feels above their relationship partner.

One telling trait of narcissism is the sense of entitlement. They want what they want when they want it. You can forget what you want- they do not care. They feel their needs and wants are all that matters; and their attitude is you should feel the same. Furthermore, you should NOT expect to have your needs and wants met, or even heard. They expect you to anticipate their every wish and if you do not – look out! - As they may lash with anger, rage, and strike back by devaluing and demeaning you as a person.

Other narcissistic traits:

-- Lacks empathy. Emotional support or understanding is minimal at best. Inability to identify with and understand your feelings; fails to recognize or care about what you are going through or experiencing; cold and aloof towards your feelings; displays an inability to be caring or compassionate through difficult times.

-- Has difficulty taking responsibility or admitting mistakes. When arguments or issues inevitably occur, he/she rarely feels accountable as being part of the problem. All relational troubles and predicaments are yours and yours only. They will never admit defeat. They have a selective memory of events, and seldom take ownership of past (or present) behavior that seems imperfect or unpleasant to them. They twist the facts, and in so doing, make you the ‘crazy’ one for even suggesting they somehow had a part of any problematic matter.

-- Grandiose: Is impracticable and idealistic in view of themselves. Has an extreme sense of superiority and self-importance; Their self esteem seems high, however it is false self esteem as it is only gained by viewing others as “less than” and the self as “better than”. They comprise a brazen mental state that it is always and forever, about him/her. They have a need for unconditional admiration, admiration, attention, but only on a superficial level.

-- Easily becomes defensive/feels threatened: If you are not propping him/her on the high artificial pedestal, he/she often becomes offended, slighted, or bitter. When you call them out or confront them on an issue, inappropriate comment or behavior, or if you set a boundary, share a differing view, opinion, or belief— they easily view it as a threat; and consider it an attack on themselves. More often than not, their response is to become defensive then strike back with rage, fury, power games, revengeful tactics, or passive aggressive behavior's.

* You may also notice narcissistic behavior's in your partners relationships with others (family, friends, coworkers, etc.)

This got me started on a full blown freakout about 4 weeks ago. I didn't know what a Narcissist was, i thought they were vain and looked in the mirror at themselves all the time. It turns out my wife is one of the other types of Narcissists, called Covert Narcissist.

.Overt Narcissist
.. Somatic Narcissist (Thinks they are better looking than everyone)
... Nymphmaniac - female
... Satyr - male
.. Cerebral Narcissist (Thinks they are smarter than everyone)

.Covert Narcissist (aka: Covert, Shy, Hypervigilent)
Differs from the Overt types because they realize that they are not the False Self they are promoting. They are harder to detect.

.Inverted Narcissist - (Sometimes mistakenly called Covert Narcissist, but not the same as above)
Differs by their need to be attached to a Narcissist, kind of like a groupie, sidekick or wingman

.Codependant Narcissist - Where a covert Narc is in a relationship where they are codependant and need their significant other in that way.

Anyway, it is totally freaking me out, and has killed my mojo. It is like in the movies where they time travel and change something in the past and come back to the present and don't know what's going on. This has totally shaken my world and although I saw all the symptoms over the past 17 years I've been married to her, I never could put my finger on it. This has some very real scary stuff associated with it and I can't beleive I didn't figure it out sooner. All of a sudden my life has turned into a scary movie, and you realize that nobody will believe you, it gets worse.

Have you tried couples therapy?

(05-06-2015 3:44 AM)stefdude Wrote:  Have you tried couples therapy?

thanks stefdude, your reply makes me think people actually read this.


Yes, still trying Couples therapy. It turns out that one of the stereotypical things about Narc's is that they don't do well with therapy. The conflict resides in the idea that Narc's need to show the world their "Perfect Image" which is their "False Self", to admit that they need to change by needing therapy goes against that perfection.
Needing to change = Flaws & Imperfection
So they will go to therapy, but usually it is only because it is "THE OTHER PERSONS FAULT OR PROBLEM" that will be worked on.

She came to therapy with me under the guise that it was to work on my problems. It was a Therapist who specialized in EFT (Emotionally Focused Therapy) and who worked with Attachment Theory. She also admitted that it wasn't all my fault, that some of the problem was with her. But promptly followed it up with "95% me, 5% her". And the therapy was a very "safe" place. It wasn't confrontational at all. But now she doesn't want to go back because she doesn't want to work on marriage stuff until "I'm all better, and have my stuff worked out".

Here's the irony, the marriage stuff "IS" my stuff. Did I mention that I'm an ENFP and an Anxious-Attachment type.

Hey, didn't see you active in this thread again. Sorry the smurf gel is not helping. Which in hindsight seems right where I am more like your wife and my wife like you. Where it has been 17 years, nothing has changed other then your label of the situation. Try not to overfocus as that will create the opposite effect from her. Best you can do is mutually agreeing to some kind of a schedule that is focused on what you need from her then the same for her. I think from other posts you mentioned she already has her alone time booked. That may not be therapy now but just time where you are together and she knows what you need during that time. No comfort products work on her? I have not finished your journal but early on you definitely were getting allot more then me and at least products were affecting bring. Guessing you already made your way through Androstadienone , alpha nude, xist, goa, imprint , and whatever else. At the very least you being able to talk about it can help some. She may be willing to try subs while exercising or go crazy and try hypo. Good luck. All the best. Above is all my opinion. I am no expert and am trying now on my end to dig out of the whole I have created by being indifferent.

(05-06-2015 11:01 AM)dexter Wrote:  thanks stefdude, your reply makes me think people actually read this.


Yes, still trying Couples therapy. It turns out that one of the stereotypical things about Narc's is that they don't do well with therapy. The conflict resides in the idea that Narc's need to show the world their "Perfect Image" which is their "False Self", to admit that they need to change by needing therapy goes against that perfection.
Needing to change = Flaws & Imperfection
So they will go to therapy, but usually it is only because it is "THE OTHER PERSONS FAULT OR PROBLEM" that will be worked on.

She came to therapy with me under the guise that it was to work on my problems. It was a Therapist who specialized in EFT (Emotionally Focused Therapy) and who worked with Attachment Theory. She also admitted that it wasn't all my fault, that some of the problem was with her. But promptly followed it up with "95% me, 5% her". And the therapy was a very "safe" place. It wasn't confrontational at all. But now she doesn't want to go back because she doesn't want to work on marriage stuff until "I'm all better, and have my stuff worked out".

Here's the irony, the marriage stuff "IS" my stuff. Did I mention that I'm an ENFP and an Anxious-Attachment type.

Yeah, everything makes perfect sense and it's logical to me.You know better how to handle this but except for Ash's suggestion of agreeing in a schedule, it could be useful if you make her face the possibility of you leaving her.Being her "perfect/fake" self creates a lot of emotional load on her.You could try alternative ways such as Cannabis which could, at least temporarily, force her see her true self and bring this load or guilts on the surface.I'm sure though that these people avoid such things especially if they have experience and know how it can break all their defenses.

As for mones I think your best bet is GOA.

(05-06-2015 11:25 AM)MeltingAsh Wrote:  Hey, didn't see you active in this thread again. Sorry the smurf gel is not helping. Which in hindsight seems right where I am more like your wife and my wife like you. Where it has been 17 years, nothing has changed other then your label of the situation. Try not to overfocus as that will create the opposite effect from her. Best you can do is mutually agreeing to some kind of a schedule that is focused on what you need from her then the same for her. I think from other posts you mentioned she already has her alone time booked. That may not be therapy now but just time where you are together and she knows what you need during that time. No comfort products work on her? I have not finished your journal but early on you definitely were getting allot more then me and at least products were affecting bring. Guessing you already made your way through Androstadienone , alpha nude, xist, goa, imprint , and whatever else. At the very least you being able to talk about it can help some. She may be willing to try subs while exercising or go crazy and try hypo. Good luck. All the best. Above is all my opinion. I am no expert and am trying now on my end to dig out of the whole I have created by being indifferent.

Thanks meltingash,

Don't take any of this as a personal attack, I really do value input, especially from somebody who sees the scenario from my wife's side.

I think more has changed than the label. I think the label has definitely changed, but with it I have identified many behavioral patterns that weren't there before. The behavior was there, I just never noticed the pattern. Imagine a connect-the-dots puzzle, where at first it is just a bunch of dots (behaviors), but when you connect certain dots a picture appears (patterns of behavior).

The view of the picture/patterns has been very striking to me and now I am seeing the pattern daily in every interaction with her. As if I am seeing thru some conspiracy in some mystery/thriller movie. Where everything used to seem normal and I viewed all my problems as all my fault, but now that "I'VE SEEN TOO MUCH", I haven't been able to go back to the "Ignorance is Bliss" side of the line. Now I see that some things aren't my fault, and I'm just getting ANGRY, but not knowing what to do about it. I'm not wanting love, sex, companionship, conversation or anything from her right now because this change of situation if just making me crazy with emotions of betrayal and anger. [For anyone reading who worries about my anger, I've never had anger issues where I hit, hurt, or physically abuse. I can be a moody jerk tho.] And in that sort of way, I really don't want to use any 'mones, because I don't want the attraction that may be produced. It all feels so fake and non-genuine right now on an emotional level that I don't want the physical stuff.

I'm being cautious on talking thru this new stuff with her. As I've read about Narcissism Personality Disorder (NPD) and Narcissists, I've noticed some things vary from Author to Author, and some things stay pretty much the same. I don't know if the differences are from personal biases or from experiences of different types of NPD or different severities of the disorder.

But most are in agreement that you:
1. DON'T talk about NPD with a Narcissist.

. A. They will feel threatened that you have seen thru the projected false image and seen the imperfect real self.

. A-1. This can make them react both consciously and unconsciously in a way to "DEVALUE" the threat thru belittling them thru direct insult and thru indirect insult like gossip. Either with truth or lies, the effect is to discredit the person who saw thru the false image so they don't spread the word, and if they do spread the word, their credibility is diminished in hopes that nobody will believe the info.

. A-2. Narcissistic Rage - Percieving a loss of Narcissistic Supply (NS: the Admiration and Special Treatment that Narcissists need/want) will cause them to reset the scenario, meaning that they need to reset in a way where they are seen as the best or at least among the best. To do this they may lash out in a number of ways (physical/emotional/silent treatment/ social) to punish the offender, using the punishment to put them back into a state of "submission" where they will once again provide the special treatment /Narcissistic Supply. If NS cannot be counted on, they may sever the relationship. If the Punishment cannot be effected immediately for one reason or another, they will bottle it up and the punishment will be carried out later as revenge.

I did talk with her about some of it. I've never used the "N" word while talking with her, but talked about different aspects of it like: Empathy, projecting a unrealistically perfect image for others to see, and things like that. We had a little heart to heart in that aspect and then the next day she seemed mad at me/herself for divulging information of that sort. I got the silent treatment for about a week after that. It seems that there are punishments that go along with that sort of info.

Not to mention the info being painful as well, like:
"I never have loved you",
"I only married you because all my friends were getting married and you were stable enough",
"I've thought that you were a piece of crap with 2 legs for years",
"the only reason I stay married is that the kids need a dad".

It's obvious that I'm going about this wrong. But I'm being very cautious because there are so many things going on at the same time that changing 1 or 2 or Many things may make things worse.

Any and all insights are appreciated.