Displaying narcissistic traits is not equal to personality disorder of narcissistic type.I know how hard is the second is from experience in my family circle.I'm just saying this to be careful how you filter what you read, what is to be attributed to her and what not since you are in a sensitive and emotional state.

Wow, your last few lines were pretty extreme, but I can see it in a way. I myself am almost middle aged and still do not have a firm grasp on feelings. For example, if you were to leave her tomorrow and say, "that's it we are done" discontinue contact for about a week and then talk to her. Good chance she would then feel something. It would definitely illicit a response. Perhaps not the one you may want, but a response with emotion would be there. Allot of it may be that it is hard to imagine what it is like without you. The comfort is there and that is how the world is.

This may be the worst advice in the world, but what she needs now is space. If she does also fit the mold you have created with the labels, then she also needs specific other things that you provide in your every day lives. In whatever ways you convenience her being that feeds her, stop. Go to therapy yourself, until it feels like time to reintroduce her. Otherwise, continue on your track, not in anger, but taking into consideration any of the points she mentioned that may have some validity, doing whatever you want to do for yourself. Be selfish for awhile and find the least destructive ways to feed your needs.

When you are past the anger of the patterns which have always been there or present for years and know that if it wasn't you, she would probably do the same thing(s) to whoever and that is just who she is, you then need to decide if she is still the one that you want to be with and how you can work together to give each other what you need. It may be just you working it at first, or the time you take now to yourself could be the spark she needs to see that she needs you too.

Once again though, I screw my own life up constantly with my own inability to feel along with my patterns of disappearing to myself vs family or couple alone time, hence , just my opinions on me thinking what may impact me.

In the end, you are important and need to make sure what you do, is helping your ability to do what is best for you and your well being (possibly your children s as well). She will either join you eventually or ignore you. That is more of a wait and see type of thing.

I feel bad for you Dexter. I know how it feels.. the betrayal, the anger.. Being violently thrown into a different reality. Believing in something and then seeing the harsh truth, like you had swallowed the red pill and seen the matrix. I went through this. twice. It fuc*ing hurts.
Things more or less softened down and the anger eventually fades away, even though it stays buried deep down and sometimes it wants to surface. But perhaps that's my fault cause I don't think I made the right choice.

I'm with you wholeheartedly and I truly hope you will be able to see more clearly in the next few days/weeks and that you will be able to change the situation like you wish. As Metling said, you need to be a bit selfish and think about you and what is the best for you.

M.

David X, who teaches men to meet women, has an interesting philosophy - In your relationship with your wife, do you know where you stand?

Number 1. You're number 1.

In her perspective, she's Number 1 and you're Number 2.

Turn that anxious attachment around. From them to you, instead of from you to them.

From your perspective, YOU'RE top dog. YOU'RE head honcho. YOU'RE the desirable man. Come from that mindset, don't delve too much into the psycho-mechanics of how to do it. Sure, you'll stumble the first few times but that's how we all learned to walk.

(05-07-2015 3:04 AM)kimosabe Wrote:  David X, who teaches men to meet women, has an interesting philosophy - In your relationship with your wife, do you know where you stand?

Number 1. You're number 1.

In her perspective, she's Number 1 and you're Number 2.

Turn that anxious attachment around. From them to you, instead of from you to them.

From your perspective, YOU'RE top dog. YOU'RE head honcho. YOU'RE the desirable man. Come from that mindset, don't delve too much into the psycho-mechanics of how to do it. Sure, you'll stumble the first few times but that's how we all learned to walk.

I understand the alpha way - a little - but I'm not an alpha by nature. I definitely know that she regards me as somewhere in the teens to hundreds, while she regards herself as #1.

I don't think that being alpha will change the underlying anxious attachment. I've read about it, and I think Understanding what Anxious Attachment IS, helps to change the effect it is having. In my case anyway it was a big change. Once I was able to see the differences between "WHAT I THOUGHT WAS HAPPENING" and "WHAT WAS REALLY HAPPENING" according to Attachment Theories perspective, I was able to see the patterns and much more prepared to be able to make some changes. Until you see the pattern of behavior, knowing what needs changed is very hard.

I am also derailed a little in the Attachment Theory perspective right now due to finding out that my wife has NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder). It was thanks to Attachment Theory and a web site that was Attachment Theory related that I was able to finally uncover this NPD diagnosis. The Avoidant-Attachment threw me for a loop when I first read it, in a way, it prepared me for the NPD throwing me for a loop. Stretching the 2 loops out with a month between them was probably much easier than going straight to discovering the NPD, which was very hard, but it could always be worse.

There are some striking similarities between MBTI & Attachment Theory & NPD (covert/shy/hypervigilent variety of Narcissist) in my wife's case.

(05-06-2015 1:50 PM)stefdude Wrote:  Displaying narcissistic traits is not equal to personality disorder of narcissistic type.I know how hard is the second is from experience in my family circle.I'm just saying this to be careful how you filter what you read, what is to be attributed to her and what not since you are in a sensitive and emotional state.

Yes. I've taken everything with a grain of salt. So much of what I read says "RUN AWAY AND DON'T LOOK BACK", when talking about a relationship with NPD. I think that may be good advice for single people, but I'm married for 17 years with 4 kids, there is much more care to be taken because so much is at stake with the kids.

I'm reading a book right now that doesn't DEMONIZE the NPD individual like so much of the internet does. It's called "disarming the narcissist" by Wendy T. Behary. She specializes in psychotherapy for N's and believes there is hope in my situation. I'm not done with it yet. But I'm going very cautiously and haven't confronted my wife about it yet, I've never used the N word around her yet over the past month or so that I've been reading about NPD since discovering. Our marriage therapist also said to go slow and don't focus on it, so the opinions are definitely polarized between "RUN" and "GO SLOW & CAREFUL".

Wow, so many fucked up people in this world. I just helped my Brother get out of a relationship with his now EX gf who is clearly NPD. After many sessions of us talking it out I finally convinced him that he is worth more than the treatment he was receiving from this piece of shiznet.

17 yrs and a family is way more difficult to deal with than just a simple bimbo gf you can walk away from. I wish you and your family well and I have said a prayer for you.

It does not sound like she deserves you.

(05-06-2015 5:17 PM)MeltingAsh Wrote:  Wow, your last few lines were pretty extreme, but I can see it in a way. I myself am almost middle aged and still do not have a firm grasp on feelings. For example, if you were to leave her tomorrow and say, "that's it we are done" discontinue contact for about a week and then talk to her. Good chance she would then feel something. It would definitely illicit a response. Perhaps not the one you may want, but a response with emotion would be there. Allot of it may be that it is hard to imagine what it is like without you. The comfort is there and that is how the world is.

This may be the worst advice in the world, but what she needs now is space. If she does also fit the mold you have created with the labels, then she also needs specific other things that you provide in your every day lives. In whatever ways you convenience her being that feeds her, stop. Go to therapy yourself, until it feels like time to reintroduce her. Otherwise, continue on your track, not in anger, but taking into consideration any of the points she mentioned that may have some validity, doing whatever you want to do for yourself. Be selfish for awhile and find the least destructive ways to feed your needs.

When you are past the anger of the patterns which have always been there or present for years and know that if it wasn't you, she would probably do the same thing(s) to whoever and that is just who she is, you then need to decide if she is still the one that you want to be with and how you can work together to give each other what you need. It may be just you working it at first, or the time you take now to yourself could be the spark she needs to see that she needs you too.

Once again though, I screw my own life up constantly with my own inability to feel along with my patterns of disappearing to myself vs family or couple alone time, hence , just my opinions on me thinking what may impact me.

In the end, you are important and need to make sure what you do, is helping your ability to do what is best for you and your well being (possibly your children s as well). She will either join you eventually or ignore you. That is more of a wait and see type of thing.

Thanks MeltingAsh,
At therapy yesterday I mentioned how I had been angry and troubled over the past 5 weeks, I said that I was feeling angry and that I've never really felt that way before in my life. I tried to figure out what it was and said that a friend had suggested the 5 stages of grief (denial, anger, bargaining, depression, acceptance) or at least 4 of them over greiving for the loss of something. I thought about it and thought it might be the "loss of hope that my wife would love me back". The therapist jumped in and said "NO! It's not that." possibly in a buffering/running interference way to keep me from messing up my situation more.
The long and short of that story was that after the session my wife said, in the parking lot, "I didn't realize you were angry." I guess me being angry equates to me appearing to sit on the couch quietly and avoid her. Seems she doesn't miss the sex either as she hasn't mentioned that either. I don't know if she would miss me if I left, until something needed fixed or done. My angry doesn't involve yelling, slamming doors, or violence. I guess I may have no outward angry signs. Hopefully this will go away. I've had lots of negative emotions, but not anger before, not for more than a few hours/day. This long term stuff is yuck.

(05-07-2015 2:44 AM)moe Wrote:  I feel bad for you Dexter. I know how it feels.. the betrayal, the anger.. Being violently thrown into a different reality. Believing in something and then seeing the harsh truth, like you had swallowed the red pill and seen the matrix. I went through this. twice. It fuc*ing hurts.
Things more or less softened down and the anger eventually fades away, even though it stays buried deep down and sometimes it wants to surface. But perhaps that's my fault cause I don't think I made the right choice.

I'm with you wholeheartedly and I truly hope you will be able to see more clearly in the next few days/weeks and that you will be able to change the situation like you wish. As Metling said, you need to be a bit selfish and think about you and what is the best for you.

M.

Thanks Moe. It really is like a scary movie.

(05-06-2015 12:49 PM)dexter Wrote:  Any and all insights are appreciated.

My father is/was NPD so I think I can understand what you're going through. Ah, the stories I could tell you.

Quote:This has totally shaken my world and although I saw all the symptoms over the past 17 years I've been married to her, I never could put my finger on it. This has some very real scary stuff associated with it and I can't beleive I didn't figure it out sooner...

My mother was a psychiatric nurse for 30-some odd years, and she never could 'diagnose' him. They are really good at presenting a false-face to the world, while at the same time getting those close to them to doubt themselves. ('splitting')

Quote:All of a sudden my life has turned into a scary movie, and you realize that nobody will believe you, it gets worse...

Quote:...As if I am seeing thru some conspiracy in some mystery/thriller movie. Where everything used to seem normal and I viewed all my problems as all my fault...

Narcissts are masters at 'gaslighting' people close to them. You must be aware (all the time) what she is trying to do, and DO NOT buy into her frame. (I think you've managed this already, just some friendly reinforcement!)

Quote:"I never have loved you",
"I only married you because all my friends were getting married and you were stable enough",
"I've thought that you were a piece of crap with 2 legs for years",
"the only reason I stay married is that the kids need a dad".

There is a lot of carryover between NPD and Sociopaths/Psychopaths. (And a lot of 'co-morbidity' between ALL the personality disorders.)

As far as her statements to you; 1 is probably true in that she is incapable of loving (another person). The 2nd and 4th statements are outright LIES. She is afraid of appearing as a failure, which both 'spinsterhood' and divorce would represent. (Remember: control your frame!)

The other thing NPDer's tend to do is to assign 'roles' to people. Not based on any in-depth understanding of others, rather to 'play roles' in the internal drama that the NPDer is acting out. (With themselves as the 'Mary Sue' of the story.)

Quote:It's obvious that I'm going about this wrong...

There is no 'cure' or effective treatment for NPD. (Haven`t read the book you recommended) The only thing you can do is work on yourself, and try to avoid the huge "time-suck" that she represents.

And, 1 last thing: she will get worse as she ages. (So "GO SLOW & CAREFUL" until you decide to "RUN"!)

(09-03-2015 6:34 PM)Cremaster Wrote:  My father is/was NPD so I think I can understand what you're going through. Ah, the stories I could tell you.

Quote:This has totally shaken my world and although I saw all the symptoms over the past 17 years I've been married to her, I never could put my finger on it. This has some very real scary stuff associated with it and I can't beleive I didn't figure it out sooner...

My mother was a psychiatric nurse for 30-some odd years, and she never could 'diagnose' him. They are really good at presenting a false-face to the world, while at the same time getting those close to them to doubt themselves. ('splitting')

Quote:All of a sudden my life has turned into a scary movie, and you realize that nobody will believe you, it gets worse...

Narcissts are masters at 'gaslighting' people close to them. You must be aware (all the time) what she is trying to do, and DO NOT buy into her frame. (I think you've managed this already, just some friendly reinforcement!)

Quote:"I never have loved you",
"I only married you because all my friends were getting married and you were stable enough",
"I've thought that you were a piece of crap with 2 legs for years",
"the only reason I stay married is that the kids need a dad".

There is a lot of carryover between NPD and Sociopaths/Psychopaths. (And a lot of 'co-morbidity' between ALL the personality disorders.)

As far as her statements to you; 1 is probably true in that she is incapable of loving (another person). The 2nd and 4th statements are outright LIES. She is afraid of appearing as a failure, which both 'spinsterhood' and divorce would represent. (Remember: control your frame!)

The other thing NPDer's tend to do is to assign 'roles' to people. Not based on any in-depth understanding of others, rather to 'play roles' in the internal drama that the NPDer is acting out. (With themselves as the 'Mary Sue' of the story.)

Quote:It's obvious that I'm going about this wrong...

There is no 'cure' or effective treatment for NPD. (Haven`t read the book you recommended) The only thing you can do is work on yourself, and try to avoid the huge "time-suck" that she represents.

And, 1 last thing: she will get worse as she ages. (So "GO SLOW & CAREFUL" until you decide to "RUN"!)

Wow. It got worse. There is a part of NPD that comes out in divorce. PAS (Parental Alienation Syndrome) and it is studied and documented to be associated with Narcissistic/Borderline Personality Disorders. Dr. Craig Childress Psy.D. has a good grasp on it and shows how it is related to both Narcissism and Attachment Disorders.

Dr. Craig A. Childress - Parental Alienation
http://drcachildress.org/asp/site/parent.../index.asp

In all 5 ways, my teenage daughter is experiencing the symptoms. The psychosis of my wife is actually transferring to the kids. All in this textbook fashion and following the outline that Dr. Childress documented years ago.

I'm very worried.