(11-08-2012 10:42 PM)wiserd Wrote:  *laughs*
Reminds me of Airplane, the movie.
"You'd better tell the Captain we've got to land as soon as we can. This woman has to be gotten to a hospital."
"A hospital? What is it?"
"It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now."
I just was asking what you wanted from us. ;-)

ok, ok, I missed the meaning and now we have an anecdote.

(11-08-2012 10:42 PM)wiserd Wrote:  I wasn't able to get a noticable reaction with yohimbe. But maybe there was something wrong with my extract. Were you?

Not yohimbe, Yohimbine Hydrochloride. They are very different. Sort of.
Yohimbe is a plant extract, with lots of chemicals, one of which is Yohimbine Hydrochloride. Other chemicals in Yohimbe work against Yohimbine Hydrochloride's aphrodisiac effect. Like mixing ice and hot water and saying, it's not that cold, or it's not that hot. The Yohimbe has enough other in it (like 95% other) to reduce the effects of Yohimbine Hydrochloride.

(11-08-2012 10:42 PM)wiserd Wrote:  tongkat ali
cucumber seed extract
Magnolia extract
Glycyrrhizic acid

so many out there, so so many.

(11-08-2012 10:42 PM)wiserd Wrote:  You could very well be right about Androtics. It's hard sometimes to tell if the folks at Androtics are confused or just being deliberately obfuscatory and trying to confuse others. But personally I have enough toys that I'm not too worried about reverse engineering their stuff any more. I'm sure that there are a ton of active plant sterols. It's just a matter of diving in and testing them.

Pure speculation isn't going to inspire people. We have a lot of it around here. If you get a positive report, though, you can call in the cavalry.

Hmmm.
Androtics lists the plant sterols as ingredients. There isn't confusion there.

Their motives, nobody will ever know.

Testing their Putatives and thinking that there is a single molecule being tested. This is the misinformation. With the similarity by structure, these molecules are the bug. How many have effects like None or Nol or Androstadienone or Androsterone, or another Pxxx, well it could just be the similar sterols mixed with them. All the results on their forum about a putative are aliased with the results of the mix. Reverse engineering is a crazy idea because of this. But pulling data from a test that is not run with good statistical controls is just luck sometimes. The results are only as good as the design of the experiment.

I'll just have to order me up some plant sterols. Sounds like work. But in the end, it's all work. And when you find that nugget of info you've been looking for it pays off. Till then, just inspired work.

Ps good results with clary sage. I know androtics has said it help mones. I'm loving it. Will report later when I have more time and experience.

I have a Clary Sage scented "COHESION-XS" from Steve's Massage XS.
I like the smell of the clary sage, but I haven't had any overt hits from the wife yet, well not counting the rolling pin kind.


I can't get much info on clary sage yet, there's a web filter at work that blocks all the sites that may list the phytosterols in clary sage. I'll check them later.
But sometimes all I see is health food supplement sites, and some of their claims read like an add for snake oil, which may also be a aphrodisiac. Haha.

here's a cool link, but it's for people who smoke Clary Sage
http://www.drugs.ie/resourcesfiles/guide...ow_res.pdf

don't read this junk unless you have time to waste (quote below).

Quote:http://www.drugs.ie/resourcesfiles/guide...ow_res.pdf

Clary Sage (Salvia sclarea)
Common Names: Clary, Clary Wort, Clear Eye, Eyebright, Muscatel Sage, See Bright

Classification: Sedative
Classification: Narcotic, Pain Reliever
Classification: Stimulant

Method of Use: Smoke.

Drug Effects: The mucilaginous seeds are used to clear eyes, the leaves are used to flavour wine. This sage is used extensively in perfumes as a fixative and fragrance. Clary is the scent of “Euphoria”.

Short Term Effects: Pick me up, mild euphoria, similar to THC.

Long Term Effects: Antibacterial, anticonvulsant, anti-diarrhoeal, Antispasmodic, astringent, carminative, emmenagogue, tonic.

Negative/Overdose Risk: Heartburn.

Active Constituents: 1,8-Cineol, Alpha-Bisabolol, Alpha-Pinene, Alpha-Terpineol, Alpha-Terpinyl-Acetate, Arachidic-Acid, Benzaldehyde, Beta-Caryophyllene, Beta-Gurjuene, Beta-Myrcene, Camphor,
Caprylic-Acid, Caryophyllene-Oxide, Cerotinic-Acid, Cis-3-Hexen-1-Ol, Cis-Allo-Ocimene, Cis-Beta-Ocimene, Cis-Linalol-Oxide, Citral, Citronellol, Cuminaldehyde, Delta-3-Carene, Furfurol, Geraniol, Geranyl-Acetate, Isospathulenol, Lignoceric-Acid, Limonene, Linalol, Linalyl-Acetate, Manool,
Myrcene, N-Nonanol, N-Pentanol, Nerol, Neryl-Acetate, Oleanolic-Acid, P-Cymene, Phytosterols, Propionic-Acid-Ester, Protein, Rosmarinic-Acid, Salvia-4(14)-En-1-One, Sclareol, Stearic-Acid, Tannin, Terpinen-4-Ol, Trans-Beta-Ocimene, Trans-Beta-Terpineol, Trans-Linalol-Oxide, Ursolic Acid, Valeric-Acid-Ester.

Contraindications / Interactions: Should not be used in pregnancy due to its emmenagogue properties. Interacts with chloral hydrate, hexobarbitone.

Psychoactive Ingredient In: Diablo, Iced Diamond, Turbo III Rave.

Legality: Contains no controlled substances

I don't think I'd smoke it. But the 9 types of Phytosterols mentioned on other sites are reduced to "Phytosterols" on this publication.

The up side is it's an anti-diarrhoeal besides smelling good. Perhaps you can last longer after bad food on a date.

I apologize for intruding, but just FYI - this is the entire basis behind Love Potion fragrances. We have been blending plant, animalic and even insect derived scents for well over 25 years without pheromones, but with pheromonal effects. If you are interested in the kinds of effects you might achieve without Pheromones, or to boost and compliment your phero results, you might consider checking us out.

We have a program called Private Editions. We can make you a blend of your own design for less $$$ than it would cost you to buy a bunch of individual ingredients yourself, and of course we will blend it for you in proper measure. This service takes around 2-3 weeks.

http://www.lovepotionperfume.com/store/P...tions.html
Second item down on the page. If the ingredient you want is not listed, just write it in, in the space provided. We will email you if we don't have it, but chances are, we do. We have tens of thousands of essences here to choose from.

Mark - just delete this post if it is not appropriate.

(11-20-2012 3:50 AM)Mara ~ Love Potion Wrote:  I apologize for intruding, but just FYI - this is the entire basis behind Love Potion fragrances. We have been blending plant, animalic and even insect derived scents for well over 25 years without pheromones, but with pheromonal effects. If you are interested in the kinds of effects you might achieve without Pheromones, or to boost and compliment your phero results, you might consider checking us out.

We have a program called Private Editions. We can make you a blend of your own design for less $$$ than it would cost you to buy a bunch of individual ingredients yourself, and of course we will blend it for you in proper measure. This service takes around 2-3 weeks.

http://www.lovepotionperfume.com/store/P...tions.html
Second item down on the page. If the ingredient you want is not listed, just write it in, in the space provided. We will email you if we don't have it, but chances are, we do. We have tens of thousands of essences here to choose from.

Mark - just delete this post if it is not appropriate.

Interesting Mara,

How open are you about what scent has what effect? I totally understand if your knowledge is a trade secret, but my primary interest in this topic is to figure out how things work on as detailed and mechanistic a level as possible and not just to find mixes that work by obscure mechanisms.

I have a few oils including; clary sage, several types of orange oil, vanilla extract, jasmine, juniper (Perfumers Apprentice and High Altitude Juniper from Nature's Gift), civetone (smells like a diaper. Shelly said you had a bad encounter along those lines, but that the stuff could be aged to smell better? How does that work? ) muscone (is that any better than civetone? Have you played with it? Is chirality an issue for the artificial heterocyclic keytones? In other words, have you found natural to be better than synthetic for stuff like muscone and civetone?), styrax(Benzoin) resin, floral waters (apple, cherry, licorice), magnolia extract, mints and a few other things that haven't come to mind (including a number of artificial scents that smell nice but make me sick.)

etc.

What do you have with insect scents? Which insect scents are used? I've never heard of insect scents being used in colognes.

Again, I totally understand if your knowledge is a trade secret but if it's not, I'd love to hear what you have to say.

Wiserd, we are completely open about the effects of ingredients! Each perfume offering has a list of the majority of their ingredients and their most typical responses that they invoke. (These are one line light-hearted summaries for the sake of people's patience; you could go on for pages about the properties of each ingredient.)

Here's a copy/paste of the listing for Pashazade for example - one of our popular men's blends:

Magickal Meanings of Ingredients:

ROASTED TEA LEAVES ~ Invigorating, refreshing, mentally and physically uplifting, lust. Riches, courage, strength.
WHITE CEDAR ~ Confidence inducing, balancing, grounding, energizing, money, healing, protection, purification
BERGAMOT ~ Relaxant, confidence builder. Uplifts emotions, protection, attracts riches. Mental alertness, energizing.
AMBER ~ Fertility, creativity, love, luck, riches.
MUSK ~ Self confidence and strength, sexual attractant, heightens passions and arousal.
MYRRH ~ Stimulating, soothing. Powerful guard against evil.
GINGER ~ Fiery and fortifying, induces passion. Intensifies love spells and success spells. Love, money, success, power. Ginger increases sensitivity in the erogenous zones.
CARAWAY ~ Passion, lust, protection, health, mental prowess.
CINNAMON ~ Male sexual stimulation, passion, lust, healing, protection, energy, creativity, psychic powers.
CLOVE ~ Money attracting, deflects negative and hostile energies.

The "meanings" of the ingredients that we post come from a variety of sources - the list is an amalgamation and since we have a whimsical magical approach much of it is presented in that way rather than scientific-style, or "health benefits" style which is technically not legal. Some are known responses to specific stimuli that go back centuries. Some are derived from religious traditions, and some are from folklore from cultures the world over.

Here's our master list, posted in our Reading Room area:
http://lovepotionperfume.com/reading_roo...dient_lore

To answer your questions, (and please forgive that I do not have your wonderfully scientific vocabulary):
I have tens of thousands of ingredients here, amassed over decades, some of the most expensive rare oils on earth. I do not like or use straight aldehydes. I bought a handful of them a couple of years ago out of curiosity and most of them give me an instant blazing headache. They are linear, compressed smelling, chemical smelling. However, it is not possible, as you know, to get your hands on natural ingredients 100% of the time, (nor would you even want to as your palette would be incredibly limited if you did) - many are now illegal or ecologically irresponsible, some are cost prohibitive, and many plants when processed into oils smell completely different...such as the flower smells one way, but the derivative of the flower simply smells like camphor. So in making the perfect pear scent for example, you have to use a mix of natural and artificial oils, different fruits and florals, and then you finally get to pear. In my experience, it is not necessary for oils to be 100% plant derived/natural in order to produce the known/desired response. The PERCEPTION of pear to those that smell it is more important than the ingredients you used to get there.

Of our senses, smell is our strongest. Sound is second, and sight is actually third. Aromas can produce an instant sense memory - blast a person right back to the time and place they smelled it before, even after many decades....just like hearing a song from your youth can take you right back to the time and place you first heard it. Our sense of smell is directly attached to our limbic system, pituitary and hypothalamus area, the oldest and most primitive parts of our brains which control memory and the release of hormones that directly affect our emotions, sensual/sexual responses, nervous system, stress levels, concentration, etc. As such, if you know what you are doing, you can quite easily manipulate/steer/encourage/evoke specific responses in people by exposing them to smells. Of course, their personal experiences will skew the results, so you're not guaranteed the same response from every person, but an extremely powerful tool to have nevertheless.

Let's take vanilla for example. Vanilla is the most used fragrance ingredient in the world for a reason, and from what I have read and experienced, evokes genuine pheromonal responses. Why is this? Mother’s milk has a somewhat vanilla flavoring to it; so subconsciously, the smell of vanilla will evoke feelings of loving safety and nurturing, as well as oral fixation and a yearning for cuddling at the breast. For many, the scent of vanilla brings to the fore treasured childhood memories of baking mouth-watering cookies in a warm kitchen with a parent or grandparent. While women tend to love vanilla as well, it's especially effective when worn by women to entice men. I figured out at age 14 that dabbing vanilla extract in the area of the cleavage evokes oral fixation in men, they want to devour the gal that is wearing it...but also it makes men feel safe. The girl who smells like natural vanilla is the kind you want to incorporate into your family - you can bring her home to mother and nest with her and have babies with her. It's mood elevating and makes you feel snugly, and in adults, quite frisky as well.

Regarding musks, there's a HUGE range of musks out there, from the soapy-clean to the dirty animalic. My musk collection probably includes over 300 different types. There is a plant seed, ambrette, which smells like deer musk...it's still natural, but not animal derived. If you're willing to spend the time and the money, you can still stumble across natural animal musks for sale here and there that are older than the prohibition against them. (This is still illegal to trade, btw, but it's out there.) Animal musks, ambergris (whale musk), and most resins improve with age. They get deeper and thicker, richer and more potent as time goes by, so a tiny tiny drop of an aged ingredient like this is all you may need for a gallon of perfume. When you are playing with musks, you first have to decide what your goals are. When a musk is described as "animalic" we are generally talking dirty smelling. They smell vaguely like urine. If blended properly with other ingredients, the dirty smell comes off smelling very very sexy. Unwashed maybe, or like you've just had sex. It can be wildly arousing to people. However, there's the type of people who only like clean freshly showered smells and are turned off or frightened by the aroma of dirty sex, so luckily there are other musks, perhaps more like human semen which I have heard described by some men as smelling "bleach-like", and these are soapy clean smelling or vaguely flowery. A clean smelling musk can also be extremely effective for a man to wear for business purposes. It presents the male as virile and powerful, yet clean and professional.

When I am talking about insect scents, I mean honey and bee pollen. Again, there are hundreds of honey types and honey absolutely produces pheromonal responses in people. Bees are pheromone controlled creatures, and I'm sure that the honey and pollen derived oils are filled with insect pheromones. Some honeys are very dark and civit-like, and can easily be used as substitution for civit musk. There's also a plant hormone I use, (that one I cannot tell you the name of but you might be able to figure it out) the purpose of the plant hormone is to attract bees etc to pollinate the plants and spread the species. In great concentration, this plant hormone smells like civit. In light concentration, it's a gorgeous honey smell.

Ack, I think I have been too long winded for now. But please feel free to ask anything you like and I will answer as best I can.

(11-21-2012 12:41 PM)Mara ~ Love Potion Wrote:  Wiserd, we are completely open about the effects of ingredients! Each perfume offering has a list of the majority of their ingredients and their most typical responses that they invoke. (These are one line light-hearted summaries for the sake of people's patience; you could go on for pages about the properties of each ingredient.)

Here's a copy/paste of the listing for Pashazade for example - one of our popular men's blends:

Magickal Meanings of Ingredients:

ROASTED TEA LEAVES ~ Invigorating, refreshing, mentally and physically uplifting, lust. Riches, courage, strength.
WHITE CEDAR ~ Confidence inducing, balancing, grounding, energizing, money, healing, protection, purification
BERGAMOT ~ Relaxant, confidence builder. Uplifts emotions, protection, attracts riches. Mental alertness, energizing.
AMBER ~ Fertility, creativity, love, luck, riches.
MUSK ~ Self confidence and strength, sexual attractant, heightens passions and arousal.
MYRRH ~ Stimulating, soothing. Powerful guard against evil.
GINGER ~ Fiery and fortifying, induces passion. Intensifies love spells and success spells. Love, money, success, power. Ginger increases sensitivity in the erogenous zones.
CARAWAY ~ Passion, lust, protection, health, mental prowess.
CINNAMON ~ Male sexual stimulation, passion, lust, healing, protection, energy, creativity, psychic powers.
CLOVE ~ Money attracting, deflects negative and hostile energies.

The "meanings" of the ingredients that we post come from a variety of sources - the list is an amalgamation and since we have a whimsical magical approach much of it is presented in that way rather than scientific-style, or "health benefits" style which is technically not legal. Some are known responses to specific stimuli that go back centuries. Some are derived from religious traditions, and some are from folklore from cultures the world over.

Here's our master list, posted in our Reading Room area:
http://lovepotionperfume.com/reading_roo...dient_lore

To answer your questions, (and please forgive that I do not have your wonderfully scientific vocabulary):
I have tens of thousands of ingredients here, amassed over decades, some of the most expensive rare oils on earth. I do not like or use straight aldehydes. I bought a handful of them a couple of years ago out of curiosity and most of them give me an instant blazing headache. They are linear, compressed smelling, chemical smelling. However, it is not possible, as you know, to get your hands on natural ingredients 100% of the time, (nor would you even want to as your palette would be incredibly limited if you did) - many are now illegal or ecologically irresponsible, some are cost prohibitive, and many plants when processed into oils smell completely different...such as the flower smells one way, but the derivative of the flower simply smells like camphor. So in making the perfect pear scent for example, you have to use a mix of natural and artificial oils, different fruits and florals, and then you finally get to pear. In my experience, it is not necessary for oils to be 100% plant derived/natural in order to produce the known/desired response. The PERCEPTION of pear to those that smell it is more important than the ingredients you used to get there.

Of our senses, smell is our strongest. Sound is second, and sight is actually third. Aromas can produce an instant sense memory - blast a person right back to the time and place they smelled it before, even after many decades....just like hearing a song from your youth can take you right back to the time and place you first heard it. Our sense of smell is directly attached to our limbic system, pituitary and hypothalamus area, the oldest and most primitive parts of our brains which control memory and the release of hormones that directly affect our emotions, sensual/sexual responses, nervous system, stress levels, concentration, etc. As such, if you know what you are doing, you can quite easily manipulate/steer/encourage/evoke specific responses in people by exposing them to smells. Of course, their personal experiences will skew the results, so you're not guaranteed the same response from every person, but an extremely powerful tool to have nevertheless.

Let's take vanilla for example. Vanilla is the most used fragrance ingredient in the world for a reason, and from what I have read and experienced, evokes genuine pheromonal responses. Why is this? Mother’s milk has a somewhat vanilla flavoring to it; so subconsciously, the smell of vanilla will evoke feelings of loving safety and nurturing, as well as oral fixation and a yearning for cuddling at the breast. For many, the scent of vanilla brings to the fore treasured childhood memories of baking mouth-watering cookies in a warm kitchen with a parent or grandparent. While women tend to love vanilla as well, it's especially effective when worn by women to entice men. I figured out at age 14 that dabbing vanilla extract in the area of the cleavage evokes oral fixation in men, they want to devour the gal that is wearing it...but also it makes men feel safe. The girl who smells like natural vanilla is the kind you want to incorporate into your family - you can bring her home to mother and nest with her and have babies with her. It's mood elevating and makes you feel snugly, and in adults, quite frisky as well.

Regarding musks, there's a HUGE range of musks out there, from the soapy-clean to the dirty animalic. My musk collection probably includes over 300 different types. There is a plant seed, ambrette, which smells like deer musk...it's still natural, but not animal derived. If you're willing to spend the time and the money, you can still stumble across natural animal musks for sale here and there that are older than the prohibition against them. (This is still illegal to trade, btw, but it's out there.) Animal musks, ambergris (whale musk), and most resins improve with age. They get deeper and thicker, richer and more potent as time goes by, so a tiny tiny drop of an aged ingredient like this is all you may need for a gallon of perfume. When you are playing with musks, you first have to decide what your goals are. When a musk is described as "animalic" we are generally talking dirty smelling. They smell vaguely like urine. If blended properly with other ingredients, the dirty smell comes off smelling very very sexy. Unwashed maybe, or like you've just had sex. It can be wildly arousing to people. However, there's the type of people who only like clean freshly showered smells and are turned off or frightened by the aroma of dirty sex, so luckily there are other musks, perhaps more like human semen which I have heard described by some men as smelling "bleach-like", and these are soapy clean smelling or vaguely flowery. A clean smelling musk can also be extremely effective for a man to wear for business purposes. It presents the male as virile and powerful, yet clean and professional.

When I am talking about insect scents, I mean honey and bee pollen. Again, there are hundreds of honey types and honey absolutely produces pheromonal responses in people. Bees are pheromone controlled creatures, and I'm sure that the honey and pollen derived oils are filled with insect pheromones. Some honeys are very dark and civit-like, and can easily be used as substitution for civit musk. There's also a plant hormone I use, (that one I cannot tell you the name of but you might be able to figure it out) the purpose of the plant hormone is to attract bees etc to pollinate the plants and spread the species. In great concentration, this plant hormone smells like civit. In light concentration, it's a gorgeous honey smell.

Ack, I think I have been too long winded for now. But please feel free to ask anything you like and I will answer as best I can.

Awesome. Thanks for the long post. The vanilla associations are particularly interesting. I'll have to try some of the cleaner musks. I've basically given up on mainstream colognes. Even the expensive stuff is likely to give me headaches and the only stuff that seems to jive with me (and that my wife likes) is foody/gourmand/appetitive scents. I might be able to hide a little bit of musk (or Clary sage) in one of those or mix in some evergreen scents to make things smell more masculine but that's as far as it goes so far.

You said to watch for pure aldehydes? Good to know. Several of the New Directions Aromatics artificial scents made me feel ill. So for now they're just chilling in a box unused.

I'm never quite sure how to read the various "magik" descriptions. For instance, I wonder whether things that promote "clarity" or "purity" reduce testosterone.

I'll run the list through pubmed and see how much I can find there. Lists are good clues. :-)

I haven't been able to do anything interesting with licorice yet. It was supposed to have some demonstrated effects.

I'll have to do some more research but that is an impressive collection.

... off to bed.

Mara - could you recommend a reliable source for natural essential oils? I'm looking for organic and preferably CO2 extracted rather than steam distilled. Are you such a source?

We don't sell individual ingredients. Have you tried Aura Cacia? They are a longstanding company of excellent reputation with high quality products. Not all items there meet your requirements but many do. They are all natural, but not all products are "organic", and they do sell some CO2s.

Here's their site:
http://www.auracacia.com